Boss Regen System 2.0

[brian4]

I think the feeding system rewarded merit. If you were careful not to die, you would do well. Now, its "everyone-go-kamikaze!" and leave one person out of the boss room. At the same time, this allows for lower levels to help the higher levels and enjoy the map as well. What I think needs to be done is a combination of the new system and the old system, like only feed your full hp, not double, but there is also a small amount of regeneration to prevent it from being too easy.

 

[Thothie]

The more I look into the "learning tactics" system, the more I just wanna not give a dmg penalty coupled with the current light regen, and say after 10 deaths you just can't damage the boss anymore, and give a countdown warning. It should take care of the "kamakaze" effect in anycase.

If it doesn't go well, we'll try a boosted regen system, and if that fails as well, we'll go back to the old feeding system, as much as I hate giving up finding a way to avoid the downsides that it causes.

 

[Skillasaur]

Well, the most likely effect I can see is players getting uber pissed and leaveing if they die to a boss once - especially if the bosses aren't nerfed as with many bosses it's possible to die to them purely by accident with no chance of reprisal.

Examples of this include: Maldora's barrier + corner or wall = insta-death, Maldora's lightning beam stun resulting to insta death from minions surround or simply too much dps, Atholo freeze + stun can even kill an unlucky high level 30, minions spawning inside players or around players and in wall resulting in no possible escape until boss comes and kills you.

If this system were put into place I'd imagine that many bosses would have to be nerfed simply because many of them are hard enough to kill [maldora takes ~60 dmg from a level 39's green-charge DS]. A server of eight players has struggled to kill him whilst surrounding him on all sides 10-15 times (Leading to the aforementioned deaths by barrier).

The amount of people who die to him as it is from the aforementioned attacks leads me to beleive that by the time your party would have half-healthed him half of the players would be doing less than full damage leading to a slipperly slope where he'd be almost dead but no one can do any damage anymore.

 

[Jelly]

Maybe you should do less damage to him then, but still become ineffective against him after 10 deaths.

 

[evilsquirrel]

Rather than having the boss "Learn your tactics" ...which, just, sounds retarded...

How about a form of "Spawning sickness". Whenever the player spawns after having died (not just any spawn), they will have thier stats lowered temporarily by 5-10 points. The effect should wear off in 1-4 minutes, and would stack if they died alot. That time should give the boss plenty of time to regenerate his health with a regen system.

primary differences being:

This effect would be temporary.
It would reduce damage the player could do to everything, not just the boss.

 

[Jelly]

Maybe some Halo style respawn time aswell?

 

[Thothie]

Examples of this include: Maldora's barrier + corner or wall = insta-death, Maldora's lightning beam stun resulting to insta death from minions surround or simply too much dps, Atholo freeze + stun can even kill an unlucky high level 30, minions spawning inside players or around players and in wall resulting in no possible escape until boss comes and kills you.

1-Don’t get between Maldora and a wall if you haven’t seen his barrier recently. 2-Stability potion. 3-Kick. 4-Don’t fight Atholo without ice resistance.

The fact that folks can ignore common sense stuff like this is another motivation to limit the number of times you can be killed by a boss.

Maybe you should do less damage to him then, but still become ineffective against him after 10 deaths.

It was 5 deaths, 20% dmg reduction each time, then down to 0% and yer screwed, but I think it’s a bit cruel for some bosses.

Rather than having the boss "Learn your tactics" ...which, just, sounds retarded...

How about a form of "Spawning sickness". Whenever the player spawns after having died (not just any spawn), they will have thier stats lowered temporarily by 5-10 points. The effect should wear off in 1-4 minutes, and would stack if they died alot. That time should give the boss plenty of time to regenerate his health with a regen system.

primary differences being:

This effect would be temporary.
It would reduce damage the player could do to everything, not just the boss.

That sounds interesting, although that last bit is more bane than boon in my opinion. I could make the damage reduction temporary, and it stacks already. After awhile it’d be a time-out penalty for dieing too much, but I suppose you could, eventually, go back into battle.

Maybe some Halo style respawn time aswell?

Come back to complain as Church in white armor? Sorry, you’ll have to elaborate… My Halo experience is limited to Red vs. Blue

 

[FER]

Using lives would be neat.

Also you could make that people who has way less hp than the boss could grab the boss and keep it still for a while (more people=more still until he doesnt move at all, bu he can still attack perfectly), that way lowbies would have a use for bosses.

 

[allentrill1000]

OK heres my 2 cents.....
1: After 10 Deaths NO more damage....Ok then whats the point of AOB....the only real kamikazes wear AOB because no xp penalty. Also What about a minimum level to even hit them..(ok prob not easy to do but a suggestion)..for example Boss on Lod 4 should take A minimum level to even touch him...Next what about the regen system...we can regen so now bosses can to....sounds good works good, yet also ,means its gonna take coop to beat him...dropping damage to 0 at ten deaths makes him a solo boss....and yet one person stands almost no chance on him because by the time hes almsot dead that one person is doing no damage and boss just laughs and players quit......If you make the bosses to hard then whats gonna happen?

2: Hit 12 damage bolt.....Boss heals 20....Hits 60 full charge DS boss heals 20.....miss next charge cause boss does his leap like a frog and heals 20....uh....what did i miss? Ok i agree that in some cases 8 ppl Kamikazing the boss is well overkill....yet how many ppl can actually do it without dying once? I was in a game with 8 ppl LOD 4 and even with 2 40+ players everyone died at one point. And what dont go kamikaze? Have you fought the boss yet? Ok hit and run...Ok by the time you figure thats impossible youll be up to your necks in shriekers....oops wrong movie...He hits and runs himself...and if u luck out and corner him whammo ring of death...or u hit and run..right into the greater minions....(which in my opinion why does every game boss always have minions?)...so unless lots of ppl and really fast thinking we outta luck if damage is reduced....If this boss is too easy..leave him be, and make the next boss twice as hard...then when hes too hard you will realize that maybe hes just fine as he is....

Anyway my 2 cents is out, can i have my change now?

Allentrill

 

[brian4]

To be honest, the old boss system was great. Sure, it had its draw backs, but overall it was a good system. Many of its problems were caused by the bosses and boss rooms...

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I agree with Cornholio.
The Bloodrose bossroom (it's more of a boss hole to be honest, double entendre here get it, boss hole, bosshole) is pretty much the perfect way of showing that you have no idea how to make a bossroom that actually has fun gameplay.
And then there's Lag Djinn High'Ping who's only fun to fight because... okay well I can't really say that, but let me say that he used to be quite the b**** (and still is if you don't have the men/equipment/tactic).

First person to put a new innovative boss in his map gets J-M's eternal love.
Innovate doesn't mean "ADHD teleport", "run around because I want to extend the fight", or "lightning slap drunk fest for morons only".

Nothing wrong with the old boss system, lots of things wrong with current bosses/maps.

In before flamewar.

 

[Boom]

I think the feeding system rewarded merit. If you were careful not to die, you would do well. Now, its "everyone-go-kamikaze!" and leave one person out of the boss room. At the same time, this allows for lower levels to help the higher levels and enjoy the map as well. What I think needs to be done is a combination of the new system and the old system, like only feed your full hp, not double, but there is also a small amount of regeneration to prevent it from being too easy.

Agreed, I don't feel the excitement in killing a boss that I should feel, with this system. It has just turned into another cluster **** to get more items and loot. While I didn't enjoy the massive feed fest that it was before this new system, I think it would be perfect with some idea along the lines of the middle of these two ideas. I can't really put my finger on an exact concept but that's just my 2 cents.

 

[Tradion]

I think he should have a feed system of 50% the person he kills HP + 20% his/her total health per minute. Values can be adjusted to proper, but it sounded good to me. I also think there should be one boss, that's outright impossible without 8 people, Who feeds 500% of the health of the person he/she kills with 20% regen of total health per minute.

 

[Thothie]

Bleh. Old system is imperfect. I don’t expect any new system to be perfect either – just hoping it’ll be broken in a more team oriented way.

The Bloodrose bossroom (it's more of a boss hole to be honest, double entendre here get it, boss hole, bosshole) is pretty much the perfect way of showing that you have no idea how to make a bossroom that actually has fun gameplay.

Hey… Don’t blame me… Monsters that knock you into hazards don’t get the kill, as is already well known, so, sadly, the suicide tactic will still apply, although the regen rate should discourage it somewhat. The regen rate on Atholo, however, isn’t going to change - he'll keep the same passive regen he's had for the past year or so. Further, monsters that already have methods of regeneration, such as Calrian and Runeghar, don’t get as large a regen bonus.

Undamael’s going to be on his own system though. I suspect he’ll have to be due the unusual nature of that particular beast. While he doesn't do any of the things J-M has complained about, I'm sure he'll still hate him too.

I might have to work it so, in the same way different bosses have different regeneration and restoration rates, that they also gain resistance to players they kill at different rates. Meh, I hate going through every NPC boss script and popping new attributes at the top of their code, but it may come to that.

 

[Mouse]

I don't like the idea of player resistances. While it does discourage dying, I have a feeling its going to become a huge pain. I kinda liked the old system where the boss gained double the player's health. It didn't have the same lasting effect as player resistances would have.

 

[Tradion]

That and restarting long map quests (Lodagond anybody) after the boss becomes immune to you, would completely just piss you off. You want a game that's fun, not frustrating (which is why WoW sucks so damn much. Fun, but frustrating as fookme)

 

[Elkano]

Due to my current level I haven't been in any bossfight worth mentinong, yet, though I did think about some stuff when reading in here.

tanking bosses
Maybe I'm wrong with this but for most mobs it seems impossible to have them tanked meaning that they focus on damaging one player so other players can focus on damaging/supporting. Being able to tank a boss would allow to add specific tanking items to the game that further reduce the damage you get from a boss by sacreficing your own damage output and such.

one-hit-kills
having a boss able to one-hit-kill even higher level players without giving warnigs making the able to avoid it sucks imho, especialy in conjunction with a system that penalizes your death as the one proposed. So one should rather go for damage spikes not killing a player (eg hitting for 75% max HP so a fully healed player can survive them) or for events that can be avoided (eg casting sth like a nova that only damages in case a trace between you and the boss doesn't hit something solid in between.

honoring support
currently only damage gives you access to a piece of the XP cake. Why not also share a bit tho does supporting the ones dealing the damage? This would again make the support role more attractive.

gear with bonus
currently there is light gear ment for archers and casters in game which allows them to run away faster due to less weight. But I don't know of any items giving you bonuses to eg the amount you heal or such. This would allow people to specialize with gear meaning that they arent fixed to a specific role by stats but by the gear they are currently wearing. (due to the number of players it would be a bad idea to force a character into a role by his stats points since eg a bunch of healers most likely won't kill a boss ). Coupled with a container that nullifies weight for some equipment not uses currently (OK, they could put anything into the 'bank' but that doesn't allow for quick exchanges) this could help a role-based fightstyle.

So what I'm suggesting is switching (boss) fights to a system where in theory more than one player is required by allowing to specialize your character further into different roles (by gear) thus making cooperation the way to successfully defeat a boss (instead of the zerging down that seems to be the way to go currently)

--- EDIT BELOW ---

Also wrt multiple boss trys by resetting the map/server:
Why not store the bosses on server/global on FN and make the respawn every few hours? OK, if stored per server people would then have to switch to another server. Also highend guilds would be able to farm these bosses off very server in both solutions.
the other way would be to store the death penality globaly on FN and make it dimish slowly over timer, maybe with some bonus dimishes when somwone gets stronger meaning when gaining skill levels. This way one would know for some time that the boss is off limits for him until he had time to think about it or grown stronger.

 

[Thothie]

tanking bosses
Maybe I'm wrong with this but for most mobs it seems impossible to have them tanked meaning that they focus on damaging one player so other players can focus on damaging/supporting. Being able to tank a boss would allow to add specific tanking items to the game that further reduce the damage you get from a boss by sacreficing your own damage output and such.

A bit OT. Although not so much so as J-M’s “why I hate bosses” rant v3.0

one-hit-kills
having a boss able to one-hit-kill even higher level players without giving warnigs making the able to avoid it sucks imho, especialy in conjunction with a system that penalizes your death as the one proposed. So one should rather go for damage spikes not killing a player (eg hitting for 75% max HP so a fully healed player can survive them) or for events that can be avoided (eg casting sth like a nova that only damages in case a trace between you and the boss doesn't hit something solid in between.

What boss does this?

honoring support
currently only damage gives you access to a piece of the XP cake. Why not also share a bit tho does supporting the ones dealing the damage? This would again make the support role more attractive.

Ye get damage points for healing and ice shield which help you to be more likely to get first pick of items from artifact chests. Aside from dealing damage, giving away pots, and running distraction, those are about the only forms of support there are, and the only ones easily measured.

gear with bonus
currently there is light gear ment for archers and casters in game which allows them to run away faster due to less weight. But I don't know of any items giving you bonuses to eg the amount you heal or such. This would allow people to specialize with gear meaning that they arent fixed to a specific role by stats but by the gear they are currently wearing. (…

Even further off topic, but atm, anyone of a certain basic level can take any role they want. Although you might need a potion of speed to really pick up the role you are describing. With only 3 character slots, and 8 players max, you can’t really restrict roles to any severe degree, not that I’d wish to, if we could.

(instead of the zerging down that seems to be the way to go currently)

I’d prefer the Zerging to the situation where you want to leave some players outside while the few, strong, and organized take out the boss, and the inter-player conflict that rises if they aren’t allowed to do so.

Also wrt multiple boss trys by resetting the map/server:
Why not store the bosses on server/global on FN and make the respawn every few hours? OK, if stored per server people would then have to switch to another server. Also highend guilds would be able to farm these bosses off very server in both solutions.
the other way would be to store the death penality globaly on FN and make it dimish slowly over timer, maybe with some bonus dimishes when somwone gets stronger meaning when gaining skill levels. This way one would know for some time that the boss is off limits for him until he had time to think about it or grown stronger.

I don’t mind them going for the boss again, if they have some new plan, some new players, or are just plain feeling lucky, let em… I would hope any new system would make it clearer when they were defeated, but I don't want to disable try and try again.

However, when folks restart the last of a gauntlet series to repeatedly farm, that’s just plain cheating. I think we may have a solution for that this next patch though.

 

[Thothie]

The more I think about it though, the more the damage resistance (however innovative) just seems to be too cruel for a lot of the bosses. *sigh* I dunno what to do. Maybe make different methods on a case by case basis, so you have to use different stats for different bosses, or something. There's too many of them not to have some sort of default universal system.

Massive regen seems to be a good default, but I ran into the situation where my level 30 could no longer solo Sir Geric - and it seems to me he should be able to, even if it was the case that he really only needed one more guy to pound on him fast enough. Granted, Geric has 6000hp, which is pretty high, so it maybe just a matter of tweaking the regen still.

 

[Elkano]

Well, you said that you wanted to encourage teamwork over soloing the bosses, that's what my post was mainly aimed at. So, ok, maybe some parts where a bit OT in here then.

WRT the one-hit-kills I was refering to this post as like I said I haven't seen any of these bosses live, yet.

4) More one hit wonders from bosses like from the animated boss, one his deals 2200 unprotected damage.

Ye get damage points for healing and ice shield which help you to be more likely to get first pick of items from artifact chests. Aside from dealing damage, giving away pots, and running distraction, those are about the only forms of support there are, and the only ones easily measured.

I didn't know that, but I know almost nothing about that chest, too ^^', mainly because my level isn't as high that I'd see one soon ^^
so this part of the post was aimed for low/midlevel teamplay.

anyone of a certain basic level can take any role they want. Although you might need a potion of speed to really pick up the role you are describing. With only 3 character slots, and 8 players max, you can’t really restrict roles to any severe degree, not that I’d wish to, if we could.

sure, they can pick any role they want, but why not allow them to have gear pushing a specific role a bit? By doing it with gear it wouldn't force the char into a specific role since gear can be easily swaped or maybe lend from others. The limits you mention were the reason why I said NOT to do it by some sort of talents or such.

I’d prefer the Zerging to the situation where you want to leave some players outside while the few, strong, and organized take out the boss, and the inter-player conflict that rises if they aren’t allowed to do so.

at some point you'ld always be able to zerg the bosses that required some tactic in before. But personaly I think a boss fight involving at least a bit of tactics besides plain "put in damage as long as it still moves" can be a lot more fun.

I don’t mind them going for the boss again, if they have some new plan, some new players, or are just plain feeling lucky, let em… I would hope any new system would make it clearer when they were defeated, but I don't want to disable try and try again.

personally I like the idea with reduced effectiveness against the boss as penality, but since I don't know how the bossfights work I can neither agree nor denie that it would be too cruel for some bosses.

Regeneration would be a system that balances the fight mainly via DPS. If you can't manage to keep your DPS over the bosses regeneration rate you won't be able to beat it. A dead player can't do damage so there is a drop in DPS for the time he's dead/running back to the fight. But I think the amount of regeneration shouldn't be a generic percentage but tuned per boss (and maybe playercount, too, so that it won't become too easy with many players, but still easier than with few).
That way one can tune the fight by adjusting total HP and regeneration. So as soon as you can overcome regeneration you can theoreticaly solo him and the duration of the fight would be determined by his HP (given that you don't die).

 

[Durak]

Here's another idea just so you can think about it. Not sure that I support it for this game because I haven't really thought about it but I'm throwing it out there.

In Savage 2 (Sequel of an RTS/FPS sort of like natural selection) buildings have reduced armor if multiple players are attacking them. For every additional player the armor decreases at an increased rate although I don't think it's exactly exponential. The idea could be to have bosses take more damage or have decreased armor with multiple players attacking them. If it was linear up to say four or five players it might work out. However, this would have to be balanced for groups of four players. It would make guild farming runs easier (get together 5-6 high level players) but it would encourage teamwork.

Another idea would be to have the boss regen unless there was a person in a set radius from him. I can see this abused with the raven mace and it would probably vary the difficulty too much with different amounts of players/equipment.

A similar idea between the two is to have a set radius around players where they give an armor bonus. This could be non-stackable and also encourages players to stay near somewhat near eachother.

Just some brainstorming. Discuss what you like.

 

[Orochi]

Just adding my two cents. The reason that weapons like the Darksword and such have become mainstay weapons is because someone had the bright idea to make people like Maldora completely immune to magical attack. He can't be hit with any magic, weapon or casted, so when you gimp pretty much every other good weapon that doesn't leave much.

 

[brian4]

Just adding my two cents. The reason that weapons like the Darksword and such have become mainstay weapons is because someone had the bright idea to make people like Maldora completely immune to magical attack. He can't be hit with any magic, weapon or casted, so when you gimp pretty much every other good weapon that doesn't leave much.

Exactly! And maldora moves WAYYYY too fast and kills anyone who gets close nearly instantly. That rules out the bludgeon hammer as well.

 

[Jelly]

Are you kidding me? Using the bludgeon hammer with bludgeon rage I can do three times the damage I do with the Dark Sword in just about the same time. (I take loads of damage though so massive healing is required afterwards. :roll: )

 

[allentrill1000]

Ok i know that this is probably not gonna fall on listening ears...but here goes..
1: How many players actually play MSC?
2: How hard does maldora runegahr etc have to get before that number drops?
3: If he is so hard why pump him up instead of just letting everyone use weak weapons?
4: What is the point of making it more than 2 or 3 ppl to fight a boss if there are only 2 or 3 ppl on a server at one time 80-90% of the time?
5: Why not make it the more ppl join the harder it gets and the less ppl that join the weaker it gets?(donated by Vecraude)
6: Why does Runegahr and Maldora Lightning Spam so much?
7: If we have to recharge mana why dont they?
8: Is this a way to get more MSC players to work together?
9: Is this to stop farming?

Thats just a few of the questions that ran through my mind while being lighning spammed in mid air not moving stuck against wall 20 foot up by maldora while i died from 697 hp in uh 10 seconds...without ever touching the ground. Also while fighting runegahr he spawns tornados and lightningstorms on top of ppl and then throws blood drinker at point blank...ok gl dodging this punk.... When do we get the cool multiple spell weapon toss up the wazoo ability? When can i cast blizzard lightning storm and throw my axe at someone point blank in less than 5 seconds? Yes i know the bosses arent for soloing(farbeit for me to want to solo things) but you know when is enough enough? When does the boss get so powerful that noone wants to play cause hes too tough? I understand that there might be problems on the boss battles and farming and etc....yet i also know that the bosses dont have to become gods to make it challenging...make the bosses take damage from anything if your going to make them stronger....Then my royal dagger might actually do 1 point of damage to em...(for clarification i dont have a dagger but it sounded cool)...Or what about magic hurting a mage? I mean hes got minions(almost every boss with a select few) so why make him better? Anyway thats my opinion and the problem is its not the only opinion theres ppl who agree with me and theres ppl who dont...So at least my mind has been spoken...

Allentrill