Boss Regen System 2.0

[Thothie]

Well dunno if anyone else has been.... Honest enough to tell you this but I think you made a mistake using this new boss regen health system thing. Maldora who is meant to be one of the hardest is now no harder than any boss, sure he takes a little longer but anyone with an AoB and a darksword can take him down. He's so easy and yet still the loot he gives is amazing, there's going to be a huge influx in rares now as no one plays the other maps anymore cos you can get the good ones on Lodagond.

I seriously got more annoyed at the_keep boss cos of his health potions than I do at Maldora. I also think I could solo bosses like Atholo now, there's just no fear behind death (with AoB anyway) now because he won't heal. Simply put the old system is what made this game so hard and rare items actually being rare, cos the boss just wouldn't die.

Well that's my thoughts anyway.

Been getting complaints along these lines from various folks, but the main thing I want to avoid is returning to the situation where, in many cases, having more players to fight a boss is less effective, and where players start lynching one another whenever one of them dies.

Old system:
• Boss gets x2 player’s max hp whenever he kills them
- This leads to the problems above

New system:
• Boss gets small% of his current HP back each minute
• Boss gets a large% of his max HP if he slays all the players on the server
- Not entirely sure if this second bit is working (also easy to sploit past)

Now, in the case of Maldora it maybe his regen rate is simply too low, coupled with the fact that the DS is the only really effective weapon a high end character is liable to have on hand in order to deal with him.

So I’m thinking there’s gotta be another sort of penalty (as sadly we seem to have added too many advantages) for dealing with the boss improperly. But again, I don’t want to go back to the previous anti-team situation.

As such, I’m posting this for peeps to submit idears, cuz I’ve got none here. After we’ve gathered some viable ideas, I’ll setup a poll.

Edit:
Also On the table (prob some combination thereof):
• Boss "learns your tactics", and your ability to damage him reduces severly after each time he slays you
• Boss regens 25% if not damaged by players for more than a minute.

 

[Glorfindel]

God damn darksword is such a "invincible" weapon that its just become the mainstay of any bossfight and im really tired of it. People don't even need to think in a bossfight...just run around charging it up, and then use it. Repeat. Re-fucking-peat until you start getting ludicrous amounts of XP and Rares, just to please JM :roll:

I'd say increase his regen rate.

Or something like the old system, except the amount of HP returned to the boss is determined by the number of people in the server.

 

[Sabre]

Vampirism could also work for Maldora, after all he is our local NaziVampireZombieNecromancer, is he not?

 

[Belmont]

Death Penalty is probally my best idea right now - each time a player dies to a boss they lose;
x% max HP
x% max MP
x% damage (this must be the most important one, imo)

The penalty can be stacked a few items but has a limit, like for example, 50% HP/MP and 30% Damage reduction, this of course, might not be the best idea - but it's something.

just no armor/weapon decay, please

 

[Durak]

Death Penalty is probally my best idea right now - each time a player dies to a boss they lose;
x% max HP
x% max MP
x% damage (this must be the most important one, imo)

The penalty can be stacked a few items but has a limit, like for example, 50% HP/MP and 30% Damage reduction, this of course, might not be the best idea - but it's something.

I'm not sure if you meant for this to be permanent but it could work like in guild wars. If you die you have a % max hp/mp loss until you change areas. Could make it so that you have the loss for a certain amount of time, say 10 minutes, and more deaths in that time stack on another 5%. That way you can't keep sprinting in and dealing damage. On the downside, you'd have to wait a while if you're legitimately trying to push forward and crystals of relocation wouldn't be nearly as sought after. Also, it would give the boss a chance to heal if you sat around waiting for the effects to run off. It may also be a bitch for "low" level people which I would hate more than anything.

 

[FER]

How about the amount of health he regens is based on the amount of minions summoned at the moment of the regen?

Still, going back to the old system would be awesome.

 

[Thothie]

Death Penalty is probally my best idea right now - each time a player dies to a boss they lose;
x% max HP
x% max MP
x% damage (this must be the most important one, imo)

The penalty can be stacked a few items but has a limit, like for example, 50% HP/MP and 30% Damage reduction, this of course, might not be the best idea - but it's something.

just no armor/weapon decay, please

That might be a viable option, although getting it to not simply let you restore your HP/DMG on reconnect would be tricky. There's already a function for increasing/decreasing damage, and that alone might be enough, say -25% damage per/death until yer, screwed, or some such. Only on the map with the boss, of course.

MIGHT be viable (not sure) to make said penalty only apply to the boss... Makes a bit more sense... If he kills you he learns to predict your fight style, or some such.

 

[villager]

I gots a decent idea

-Regen rate could increase drastically when the boss isn't occupied with any player for a certain amount of time, kinda like a penalty if you don't got enough players to distract the boss (Say as if he whips out the rejuvinate spell when he thinks the coast is clear)

-Could just decrease the regain when a Boss kills a player to his/hers Max HP, versus X2 Max HP

Darksword IMO is rediculous, makes axes look worthless at any AH level. I could totally live without the damn thing, makes me look like a fool when I want to experience the game rather than KEEL THE BOSS SUPAR FAST!
And the charge up time isn't a real penalty :\

 

[Skillasaur]

The main problem is the bosses, their hp and their loot have all been balanced in the old system. In the old system it wasn't uncommon for someone to die to a boss and it regain ALL it's hp from one person.

Examples of this include the_keep boss or atholo [who iirc gains about quater/half hp from killing a single level 30/500hp].

Indeed, this is the best time to farm bosses for weapons as loot chances don't seem to have changed a lot and with a max penalty of adding 25% hp to a boss many bosses become soloable [provided you can do more than 25% damage to them and they don't kill you].

I don't really see it as a terribly bad thing but personally I didn't really mind the old version. Generally all players on a server wanted to contribute to a victory but with many bosses [such as Rhuneghar] people who died were forced to stay out or suffer a votekick. This didn't actually work too badly and while it may seem rather detrimental to multiple people to have a situation in which some people effectively couldn't participate it still provided a major challenge with cooperation to defeat bosses, instead of the bloody minded determination you need to farm under the new system.

So essentially I preferred the old system, as all alternatives to balance the new system would involve either exp/gold penalties to the player [which I hate anyway] or to buff boss hp [which would really make boss battles tedious] or nerfing loot chances [which would be more infuriateing than any other choice as many maps already require multiple people just to complete and forcing more runs of maps makes it less likely there will be enough people to run them for enough time to get loot]

 

[Thothie]

Well, I'm looking into the "boss learns your tactics" type thing, and it seems doable. The way I've currently have it written up, the boss becomes 25% resistant to your damage each time he kills you, until he's immune. So, basically, you get four chances, after that, all you can do is shoot minions, heal buddies, and maybe slow the boss with blizzard and such - but you can't damage him, and thus most likely won't get picked for the Arti-chest (coupled with the dmg points nerfs for IS/HC). It tracks by SteamID so you can't escape it by reconnecting.

This both discourages dieing to the boss, and lets n00bs know when a boss has defeated them (ie. when they, and all their buddies, can no longer damage him, they've lost.) Without creating a situation where more players are less effective than few.

The massive regen while players are away I like too, but it's tricky to arrange the way some boss rooms are setup. Maybe if the boss hasn't been damaged in awhile instead... Less tricky, although hard to balance.

 

[FER]

Well, if you want to put that style learning penalty, then dont add health regen on him unless you want a huge rant

 

[Thothie]

Well, I don't think it'd be enough by itself... But I'd probably axe the regen for killing all the players, as there's enough penalty for that built in with it, plus it pulls us back towards the "great, you just screwed the whole team" effect. Shame I went through the trouble of fixing it. :\

 

[The Man In Black]

Blarg. Vill stole my idea

I think:
Learning your moves: 20% each time
Regen when no players hit: 10% 30 seconds

 

[PBarnum]

I really wanted the DS to be a great and all mighty sword. But one you would have to sell your kids in order to get it. Unfortunately, the market is flooded with them and are no longer *that* hard to get.

My proposals:
1a) Make rare items incredibly rare and also to not depend on amount of players (like all other MMOs).

OR

1b) Make rare items incredibly rare and still depend on amount of players, but making it still possible to spawn the item if your by yourself. (Something like .001% of the time would it spawn).

That was just a warm up suggestion. Something the MSC community argued a long time ago.

2) If bosses get surrounded with no where to go, let them be able to make a bounce back attack (like what is around the wizards when encasing the orc, or a simple teleport like what the orc does)

3) Implement the Boss "learn's your tactics" deal. Sounded really good to me. Though it should be directly with the player and not the team and he should only be allowed to learn about 50% max

4) More one hit wonders from bosses like from the animated boss, one his deals 2200 unprotected damage.

5) More death traps in the boss room.

6) Multi-attack. Where the boss does damage to ALL players from a spell or something. So it won't be one person distracting while everyone else heals.

 

[Thothie]

1b) Make rare items incredibly rare and still depend on amount of players, but making it still possible to spawn the item if your by yourself. (Something like .001% of the time would it spawn).

There are only 6 items in the game that cannot be gotten with a single player. These do not include the DS. But that’s basically how it works if you go looking for such weapons SP (actually, better odds than that). The spawn chances with multiple players, on the other hand, are higher than ever – but still not high enough to stop folks like Durak from complaining.

2) If bosses get surrounded with no where to go, let them be able to make a bounce back attack (like what is around the wizards when encasing the orc, or a simple teleport like what the orc does)

6) Multi-attack. Where the boss does damage to ALL players from a spell or something. So it won't be one person distracting while everyone else heals.

Several bosses do these things, but I’m thinking of changes that are not boss-specific but can be applied to all the bosses.

4) More one hit wonders from bosses like from the animated boss, one his deals 2200 unprotected damage.

5) More death traps in the boss room.

Now yer just trying to get me killed, aren’t you?

 

[PBarnum]

Several bosses do these things, but I’m thinking of changes that are not boss-specific but can be applied to all the bosses.

That is what I had in mind.

 

[Thothie]

So yer thinking I just, for instance, give Keledros's fire burst @ every 25%hp bit to all the bosses?

There'd have to be exceptions, or types... Wouldn't work so good for the Ice or Lightning Djinn's, for instance.

 

[The Man In Black]

I think more knockback (not necessarily throw ;-)) could help with the gang-bang scenarios.

 

[PBarnum]

Right, like for example, you could have a knock back for the Djinn's. Just have them do their "pick up a bolder" or "war cry" animation. Ice burst followed by blizzard for ice queen. And so on and so forth.

 

[Thothie]

Okay... But this seems more of a way to fend off multiple players... I'm looking for ways to encourage multiple players and discourage single players or small groups of weaker players from going after bosses beyond their level. Basically, ways to encourage team work while at the same time making the fact that "you are not worthy" more intuitive.

 

[Durak]

1b) Make rare items incredibly rare and still depend on amount of players, but making it still possible to spawn the item if your by yourself. (Something like .001% of the time would it spawn).

There are only 6 items in the game that cannot be gotten with a single player. These do not include the DS. But that’s basically how it works if you go looking for such weapons SP (actually, better odds than that). The spawn chances with multiple players, on the other hand, are higher than ever – but still not high enough to stop folks like Durak from complaining.

I object to that because it's not the drop rates alone that I complain about. It's the fact that the progression is too slow for the wrong people. I'm level 32 (with 568hp-ish) and my best weapon is a GiB. I played ms_snow about 50 times and the group of the four of us only found two gibs and one rune shield. I think that's a little rediculous when I see level 20s running around with AoB, thornbow, novablade, and helms of stability. Not even taking extreme examples but every level 28-34 person I see has about the same hp as me (+-30) and has at least phoenix/AoB with all the best weapons. I figure that the system is broken if the only people I know of who play untwinked (not even necessarily with me) don't have anything and everyone else has everything. I just think there's a gap there and it's not just an opinion .

Edit: Sorry, that's a little offtopic. I'll try and think up some ideas while I'm at work because I think this is an area where I could make a difference on the thing I'm complaining about.

 

[FER]

Thanks Thothie for summonig Durak's wall o' text


How about the bosses strengh (spells,melee, everything) drops 5% per player on the server? (and the bosses actual strengh would be as if theres 3-4 players)

 

[allentrill1000]

Dang if i had known the bosses could be killed so easily with a ds i woulda....oh wait i cant use a ds yet....and u guys want to buff up the bosses? IMHO which doesnt matter except to me....the bosses kick my butt period...even if i had a ds withs 21 sword id be pretty useless.....and even if i had AOB id still be useless....I know that DS is an uber kick boss out of his pants kinda weapon....but i havent seen that many ppl onling using it vs the boss....oh sure 5 of the last 30 ppl i have met use a ds but does that mean the bosses are to easy...nope...it means that if u lucky and can use ds very well then that boss is a pushover...yet if u cant use a ds then its gonna take a whole lot of thinking to take down an uber boss....I mean i can run around in circles being chased by runegahr just like anyone else can....And maybe with enough bolts and luck i can shoot him to death in oh id say half hour to hour...lol and now u guys want to buff him like i asked at the beginning of this post? If they take to much damage from the DS then make a new map set with a boss that takes less damage from ds ....leave these bosses alone....But like i said this is my honest opinion and it matters only to me, but supposedly the DS is like the rarest of the weapons and takes a bunch of skill to use it effectively....so whats the problem with it? Oh well i like the system as it is now...because it makes them heal almost as fast as we do if not faster and for those of us without AOB or DS have to work for a reward that someone else will prob get anyway...
Allentrill

 

[PBarnum]

I think that's a little rediculous when I see level 20s running around with AoB, thornbow, novablade, and helms of stability.

Which reminds me. Does every item have a minimum level limit or just some items? Everything should have one, that way we don't have uber level 20 players running around. Everyone would be then be, dare I say, only as powerful as their level!

Of course none of what I said matters if you are going to take out levels all together (with the new title system I am sure no one has forgotten).

 

[Picadilly]

Everyone's complaining about the DS making other weaps look useless against bosses. Well the truth is, many weaps are useless against some bosses.

Take Runegahr for example. I just got a bludgeon hammer, which I consider to be the best blunt I've ever used in the game. But, even with bludgeon rage, I can't hurt him more than he sucks off me in melee, and my blunt is pretty high (33). Even with one of my buddies, who was using a Blood Axe (he's got lvl 34 axe), couldn't even get him into the red after 30 minutes, and nobody even died!!!

Maldora, you're just kidding. Bludgeon hammer does @ 30 dmg uncharged on him. Even getting close to him you're dead within a few seconds (of course most of you wouldn't know this since you just - DS - hit - and - run).

It's not DS's fault that it's the only boss killer left in the game. Remember when LS could kill a boss? Remember when blizzard hit targets? Remember when GiB hit things and didn't drain mana? Remember when bosses hit you with a weapon and you returned the favor, instead of gimmicky traps and natural disasters churning players out like butter? You guys asked for this reality and now you've got it. You're not happy one way, then it's changed and you're still not happy. Even if Thothie coded yet another change into the game, you STILL wouldn't be happy.

Now that I'm done complaining, here's what I suggest.

For one, I think uber weaps like DS and Hoarfrost and the like have way too low of lvl requirements. If noobs can put them in their hands, they'll want them. Make it so that they can't even be held by those who don't meet the requirements. Not even saved for later, nothing.

Two, I think the skill/XP ramping is fubar'd. For example, the difference in damage between level 33 MA and level 28 is so small, there's no real advantage to having the higher level. Consider this: my MA is 35, why should I only be able to use DC and speed attack an enemy the same length of time as a wizard with a crap MA and the same amount of mana? Wouldn't it go without saying that a martial artist's goal is to increase speed of attack and endurance?! It's just insane! Title system aside, there should be a bonus system associated with reaching very high levels in any skill (30+ in any individual skill). This would make weapons more viable in the hands of those who've mastered the weapon skill, and you'd be far less likely to see a server full if Titans DS'ing a boss. Same with spells.

Three, I see ppl complaining about: "Waah, level 21's have PA's and AoB's and DS's... boo hoo..." Look, these guys didn't go solo wicard or loda-1 and get these things. Their guilds got them for them. Plain and simple. Tired of seeing low level kids running around with rares you can't get? Join a guild that makes getting rares for their players a priority. For all the crap TFL takes, I can say without apprehension that they will grind wicard until every last one of their players has a PA, even if it takes dozens of hours, and even if all of the players have PA's except one. IMO, until there's a reason to join guilds besides farming (a.k.a. guild wars and quests), farming shall remain the primary motivator.

Four, Maldora is a grind plain and simple. Hit him long enough, he dies, no doubt about it. But, giving him total immunity to a certain kind of attack is insane. You're telling me that it somehow is justified to go through loda-1, loda-2, loda-3 just to have some noob die using a sword attack and have all sword attacks rendered useless? I've seen how the bandit boss in the_keep gets immunity from elemental effects from some jerk hitting him with LiB after we've repeatedly warned everyone, "don't hit him with elemental weapons". I can really see where this immunity will lead to. IMO, if the boss is there, he's meant to be killed. If you don't want to see him die, just make him invincible in the first place.

Five, all maps have level requirement guidelines. Ever think of making these restrictions? You'd cut out a lot of the crap people complain about just by ensuring that people don't join maps that they don't belong on. I mean, by the time you reach level 40, you probably understand the concept of death penalties, know what I mean? I don't necessarily mean free-roam style maps like nightmare_thornlands and to some extent bloodrose, etc. What about if only players of a certain level could enter the emerald keyed entrance? Lower levels could still go along and fight Slithar, but would have to sit the big fight out. Fair? Not sure. Would cut out a lot of crap and whining? Absolutely.