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kroush - feedback

Discussion in 'Maps' started by Dehoth, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Dehoth

    Dehoth New Adventurer Developer

    Dec 1, 2013
    Nom Nom
    Hey everyone; just made this so people can get their opinions out there without having to pent them up.
    Also helps me know what I did bad and good, given that it is my first msc map.

    About anything will do here
    , given that it:
    - Does NOT contain spoilers (try to be nondescript if you have to)
    - Is related to kroush

    Also please try to explain why you think it's bad/good or just "meh". Don't say "It sucks" without pointing at a horrible piece of work; who knows everyone else might have thought the same but was afraid to say so. Same goes for saying it's "good". We are not in a relation where you need to be as political correct as possible. ;) Not going to create a poll as that just gives me nothing that I can work with.

    Your feedback could help shape the future of the maps to come! Unless you think I should just stop mapping, which could be your honest opinion.

    Thanks in advance for your feedback!
    Father Brandon likes this.
  2. Lucifer Majiskus

    Lucifer Majiskus New Adventurer Sons of Babel

    It's gorgeous!
  3. Hush

    Hush New Adventurer Developer

    Sep 14, 2004
    Well, I am trying to keep things short:

    What i like
    • The map is not as linear as other MS:C maps, there are many a different ways and paths how to play and explore it. If you are considering to continue mapping for MS:C, this is an aspect I would like to see in following maps aswell, because you did a great job at that with kroush.
    • The way you play the map influences it's ending, which is imho a great way to create a certain replay value, aside from using random spawning enemies or bosses
    • the layout of the map is varied and has a lot of nice details in it

    Two tiny points of criticism
    • Yeah I know, I pointed that out before but: The "cursed one" plays quite a prominent role on this map, but there is not much backstory to him. I don't mean that I want to see pages of backstory for him, but a little hint why he is forever in "that state" or even a solution to free him at the end would have been a nice addition to the map. That shrine part of the map, which at moment serves not much purpose, but looks quite nice, as well as the altar at the end, would be nice locations for a little story hint or even solution for his "current state".
    • The music in a few spots feels a little bit too epic for a fight in a bandit keep (for example in the "great trap room")

    Can't really tell if the loot or xp of that map is fair, because I wasn't able to play it with other people yet.

    All in all, it is a pleasure to play this map and I am really looking forward for some more handcrafted maps by you. :)
  4. zeus9860

    zeus9860 New Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

    Feb 28, 2008
    It's a pretty decent map from what i have seen so far, i think i missed a few things so i can't really comment on the map entirely.

    The idea behind the map felt unique to me, just like the one map with the soup questline, there are multiple ways of approaching a place. That is a good approach. The cons of this approach is that it potentially makes the map feel smaller, i know there are limitations right now within the game engine but i would like to see something like this again, perhaps on a higher scale involving the gauntlet system.

    This could even become a thing for map gauntlets, have a main central map connected with multiple maps that provide alternative entrances and points of view to the central map, say there are 4 transitions to get in the central map, each of the 4 maps has a gauntlet layout so you can only access them through other transitions from previews map, each of the maps has a different impact on the central map, say there are 4 different species of enemies in a fight in the central map, killing off one of the sides from one of the transition maps would force the central map to boot up with only 3 species of enemies.

    In other words, central map is connected to X maps that surround the central map and X maps are connected to Y maps that are further away from the central map. Having something like this connected could potentially create further replayability of the maps involved, combining different transitions and whatnot. Probably takes alot of effort as it requires multiple maps and scripting.

    Another thing that caught my eye was the one enemy that spawned more than once. It reminded me of something i thought of long ago as I always wanted to see something like this be used in this game, i gave suggestions to another mapper some years ago about making an encounter with some shadow figurine in one of his maps (a dropped project), like have that one npc show up multiple times randomly throughout the map to scare the player and have a fight with. With each time getting more difficult to fight back (the enemy adapts to you) untill you end up forcibly loosing to the enemy without actually dieing. The enemy leaves a relic behind for you, so you can track it's background/past and eventually catch up to it again.
  5. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

    Apr 8, 2005
    Closest we got is Maldora, who keeps running off. Someone else came up with the idea of other insane viers for the "dark throne", one little anti-Christ for each deity of the triad, including a creepy little girl, but man, that'd be a lotta work.

    I was hoping for such a concept in Caverns of Frost - actually did a little preemptive scriptwork for it. Giant Frost Wyrm would keep breaking through the caves at various points on the map, harassing the players and opening new hazards and paths. Albeit, you'd just end up confronting it in the end, finishing it off by dropping stalactites on it, or some such similar mechanic for a beast that's too big to kill directly. Final confrontations with the three dragons likely involving similar mechanics.
  6. zeus9860

    zeus9860 New Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

    Feb 28, 2008
    Exactly, maldora was the main subject that got me into this thing. Along with the quest in mscave. The idea of mixing those together to create something interisting, like a long questline that takes you across the worldmap to figure things out and end up having multiple choices along the way with different rewards at stake. Perhaps have this questline become limited to one time per character, with a multi-unique reward scheme behind it, people would be forced to play with alts, to unlock the other rewards aswell.

    The original idea i had back then was for the_wall_east, someone was working on the map and i initially suggested something similiar of what you just said about Caverns of the Frost, except it would be an ancient machine that would get powered on by someone using dark magic, which would lead to multiple confrontations throughout the map, with each confrontation scaling higher each time, you end up destroying the machine using mechanics similiar to calruin's smith in the final spawn of the map. From there onwards is basically the shadow figurine thingy i already posted.

    I even went as far as suggesting a map layout (uploading the image doesn't seem to work, direct link it is):


    Things i didn't mention in the map layout:
    -traps, traps everywhere (from collapsing ceilings, walls and ground to "man" made traps such as magic runes that spawn tougher enemies or barriers that block your path to get ambushed, etc), none of the traps are insta kill and give you a fair chance to fight for your life/avoid death;

    -enemy layout would focus heavily on undeads(orcs/dwarves), few machines and some elves, all of them would fight each other on sight;

    -you climb your way up through each floor using debris and whatnot (in other words, F ladders and stairs);

    -each floor should have rooms that could be connected with other rooms from the same floor or the floors above, this is to create a sense of exploration and puzzling;

    -apply lots of hidden chests throughout the map, with a similiar system to orc_for, the final boss of the map is meant to drop nothing but a quest item, which will be the main reward of the map, hidden chests could have specific unique gear that spawns in very few maps, like ice staff/dark staff/affliction spells/divination spells, etc;

    -layout originally had only 3 towers and 1 entrance, i thought adding an extra 2 and creating a lever sequence to open a secret path would be something extra to force people to do everytime they play the map. Like having an extra chest in this path that spawns once you beat the boss, same path could be used as a shortcut to the top/final floor.

    Well, i guess that is enough derailing from me, thought that someone could use some of these ideas in future mapping concepts. I know very well that most of the things i mentioned requires alot of effort to come up with. The map itself from the looks of it would be gigantic, which is another problem stability-wise. Would probably suffer the same fate as the_wall and get split into two.
  7. D.Drew

    D.Drew New Adventurer

    Apr 21, 2007
    this was the only genuinely fun ms:c map added in ages, well done

    feels like an actual fun map to explore rather than some dark cancerous gauntlet with enemies that do 9 billion damage
  8. Dehoth

    Dehoth New Adventurer Developer

    Dec 1, 2013
    Nom Nom
    Thanks for the replies.

    I agree that the story isn't something that sticks for now; could be changed with connecting map(s) and perhaps some small additions/fixes later with a patch (chapel/altar-room). Do note that I had little to no guidance on what I should end up with as story when I started. I didn't had any sort of concept/suggestion in mind and ended up changing the story quite a lot due to feedback.
    The music is epic enough for a mid-level character who doesn't expect anything, imho ;).

    I couldn't make the map bigger as it is now. Reasons for that aren't in the limitations for the map, as I think I could easily add 1/3th more without any additional lag, but mostly in the fact that everything felt "complete" after a while. I didn't feel like adding random rooms or patches of grass with the sole purpose of adding extra space for the player, it would also put the player further away from the theme/feel of the map. If I added more caverns it would be more of an underground map, etc .. I hope the current split of terrain makes for a nice whole.
    (Your suggestion would be great for a possible total rework of unrest or a like-minded castle-map)

    Additional feedback is still appreciated; even negative, as it helps me improve on flaws that I might have missed otherwise.

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