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Thothie

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You literally used the word "manipulated" you utter bullshit artist.
Again, didn't make him do anything. Only manipulated him so much as we didn't ban him and provided creative tools.
 

The Man In Black

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The whole point of manipulation is getting someone to do/think something without forcing them, so no f*cking sh*t. And I highly doubt, given your word choice, what I've seen, and the amount of lies you've told, that your manipulation was simply "not banning" and "giving development tools".
 

Thothie

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The whole point of manipulation is getting someone to do/think something without forcing them, so no f*cking sh*t. And I highly doubt, given your word choice, what I've seen, and the amount of lies you've told, that your manipulation was simply "not banning" and "giving development tools".
If you can point to some other manipulation that was made, feel free, but that's all we had to do. That was our highest hope for the world, that someone would come out better for their interactions there in, and Lucifier certainly did - as did some others, just not at the ratio we would have liked.
 

zeus9860

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Alas, everyone wants to rule the world, no matter how tiny and insignificant that world is, to the point where they'll threaten lives over it.

And that's where you are wrong, you are generalising every human being. It's not that everyone wants to rule the world. Everyone has a world of their own in front of their eyes. You see it your way, i see it my way. Of course, there is the positive and negative aspect to it. You might see something as bad, while i might see it as good. Thoughts do cross eventually and opinions aline with each other under certain circumstances, as such is the human nature to gather around and stand against what is obviously bad in hopes for a better future.
 

Thothie

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And that's where you are wrong, you are generalising every human being.
Yes, you are right, not everyone wants to rule the world - a lot of people do, and in this instance, it really only takes one to want it that badly.

I'll relent further and say it's generally not so much that people want to rule the world, so much as they want to mold it to what is best for them and theirs, sometimes at the expense (or blindness) to how this affects others. It is a flawed saying, but is what put the nail in this game's coffin.
 

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i reckon using calcifer's sudden prompt for a contest and then rapidly making it a real thing with little or no time for him to actually consider the implications for more than a few hours is quite likely to be manipulation.

sure, you didn't directly *do* anything, instead you very rapidly nudged him towards a certain direction and dumped the weight of responsibility upon someone who is clearly indecisive with their convictions. it worked about as effectively as one would expect, given calcifer seems like the kind of person that acts sporadically and wanes in interests rapidly.

even if i'm unclear on what actually went on in the background of that, you're still giving him the weight of making his efforts be the "last stand" for the game, or if i took it to a further extreme, trying to make him be almost a martyr for the cause of "reviving the game". either way, i find it hard to see this as anything other than manipulation, really
 

Thothie

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Well, once he prompted for the media contest, MSC's last chance for breath was made manifest, I'll give you that. It failed, also somewhat predictably, but that was the extent of the plan at the time. He'd already proven he'd become a better person when he started working on a map, and actually cared enough about the community to make the suggestion. At that point of failure, it was just a matter of demonstrating it to the rest of the community, in the harshest way possible, given that the end of the game was looming.

To take that away from Lucifer is to deny his personal achievement. He's still no risen angel, to be sure, nor would he wish to be, but he's come all this way on his own accord. He's been no more manipulated than anyone else here, least of all myself.

That said, I recognize I'm the disease at the center of the game as much as I am the caretaker, but the efforts I've made to pass on leadership have all failed, were refused, or resulted with the game back in my lap in short order, and now that there's legal issues on the horizon, that opportunity for that has passed. Though, again, if someone thinks they can do something with the remains elsewhere, they are free to do so, but we can no longer partake or entangle the host in such an effort. If anything is to continue here, it will have to be a fundamentally new game.
 

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Yes, you are right, not everyone wants to rule the world - a lot of people do, and in this instance, it really only takes one to want it that badly.

I'll relent further and say it's generally not so much that people want to rule the world, so much as they want to mold it to what is best for them and theirs, sometimes at the expense (or blindness) to how this affects others. It is a flawed saying, but is what put the nail in this game's coffin.


Eh, you've literally gone back on your word to further justify/solidify my point of view, am i manipulating your world or am i being an influence? Take your pick, the social experiment is yours but as you can see, thoughts do cross and come to a mutual understanding... The only thing left to do is you relinquishing MS:C entirelly and move on with your life.
 

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That said, I recognize I'm the disease at the center of the game as much as I am the caretaker, but the efforts I've made to pass on leadership have all failed, were refused, or resulted with the game back in my lap in short order, and now that there's legal issues on the horizon, that opportunity for that has passed. Though, again, if someone thinks they can do something with the remains elsewhere, they are free to do so, but we can no longer partake or entangle the host in such an effort. If anything is to continue here, it will have to be a fundamentally new game.

"Legal issues on the horizon", care to explain this?
 

Thothie

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Eh, you've literally gone back on your word to further justify/solidify my point of view, am i manipulating your world or am i being an influence? Take your pick, the social experiment is yours but as you can see, thoughts do cross and come to a mutual understanding... The only thing left to do is you relinquishing MS:C entirelly and move on with your life.
No one else capable is picking up the torch. Not familiar with what word I've gone back on, beyond "no character resets", but we don't have a choice there, even if not for this latest fiasco. No version of the game is available that doesn't eat half of old characters.

I mean, if you'd rather I just archive everything and not try anything new, we can do that too. That would have been the now fully resident alien's initial desire. It took quite a bit of convincing of several ex's we're both friends with and another married couple we love, all offering their support for a renewed effort, for it not to it have been just that.

Could start a poll to that effect, "Let it die completely vs. Archive and start over."

"Legal issues on the horizon", care to explain this?
Re-read the top post.
 

zeus9860

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No one else capable is picking up the torch. Not familiar with what word I've gone back on, beyond "no character resets", but we don't have a choice there, even if not for this latest fiasco. No version of the game is available that doesn't eat half of old characters.

I mean, if you'd rather I just archive everything and not try anything new, we can do that too. That would have been the now fully resident alien's initial desire. It took quite a bit of convincing of several ex's we're both friends with and another married couple we love, all offering their support for a renewed effort, for it not to it have been just that.

Could start a poll to that effect, "Let it die completely vs. Archive and start over."

You are literally abandoning the community as it is and seeking to do something on your own, doesn't this alone tell you that you are pretty much putting the nail in the coffin? The majority of the people here are already jumping ship and some others are close to doing that aswell. What purpose will your rework achieve with all of this stated in the forums... It makes no sense. Who will be left to play this game? Game is dead and you are alienating everyone that follows regularly that is both veteran or newcomer with this approach. That's not a healthy end result for whatever you are brewing backstage.

This poll of yours is offering option B and option C to the community. I stick with option A, and you already know what it is. Just need to accept it and move on with your life as it should have been back in april.
 

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No one else capable is picking up the torch.
@The Man In Black has demonstrated he's more than capable.

Sadly, this whole ordeal could've been avoided through open communication.

EDIT: While I don't think we can fully understand your real life predicaments, it still would've been nice to have a heads-up about the plan well before April.
 
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TheRenderMan

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Found a pic of Thothie.
0_Video-of-the-guru-of-the-sect-Heavens-gate.jpg

In all seriousness. You're going on about mental bullshit in a 20 year old mod community. What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Just like the ones before you, pass the god damn torch and move on with your life. Honestly it is not that hard. MiB has shown time and time again that he is fully capable of taking this on.

Your legacy will literally still go on, though negative in nature now, but in terms of "I attempted to create a community built world in which people would work together to overcome obstacles and themselves." We're here to overcome you as an obstacle now, and we've all came to the conclusion it's time for you to hand over the keys and go on somewhere.
 

Thothie

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You are literally abandoning the community as it is and seeking to do something on your own
Community will be open to help as ever, and finally have some input on some bottom level things I've previously been afraid to mess with. I'd say about half of the complaints, that aren't about the loot frequencies, which should also be done away with as described, are about stuff on that level.

@The Man In Black has demonstrated he's more than capable.
And once took the job, back when it was still an option, and handed it back. As said, he has the archive to do with as he pleases, and he's yet to pick that up. Been in constant communication with him. He also has a kid to deal with and thus lacks the time. He's one of several I've offered it to over the years.

We're here to overcome you as an obstacle now
Well, if the community just wants the game to die, it's the other option. If it can find another home without being connected here, so is that. But if it's here, and you want to treat me and those behind me, backing the project, as an obstacle, it has no hope. Otherwise it can continue as a retirement side project. It's not as if I'm not moving on with my life. This isn't a source of income or anything, it's just a garden I tend as a hobby, one of several.

But as things stand now, no one here is required to do anything. If you're trying to kill the game out of concern for my wellbeing, I'm flattered, but I've already declared the change in direction for that reason - so to go beyond that... Makes me have to ask what it is you really want.

it still would've been nice to have a heads-up about the plan well before April.
There was no plan but a slow death, until two weeks before then, and I think I kept you all quite up to date as to how the development end was going (specifically nowhere). We haven't had a functioning patch for almost six years.
 

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Well, if the community just wants the game to die, it's the other option. If it can find another home without being connected here, so is that. But if it's here, and you want to treat me and those behind me, backing the project, as an obstacle, it has no hope. Otherwise it can continue as a retirement side project. It's not as if I'm not moving on with my life. This isn't a source of income or anything, it's just a garden I tend as a hobby, one of several.

But as things stand now, no one here is required to do anything. If you're trying to kill the game out of concern for my wellbeing, I'm flattered, but I've already declared the change in direction for that reason - so to go beyond that... Makes me have to ask what it is you really want.

Give the source to someone who actually wants to continue with.. you know.. MS:CONTINUED. That is what most want. No where did I say for you to kill the game. Quit warping what people post into whatever "social experiment" you're trying to achieve.
 

The Man In Black

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Let's clear some things up.

And once took the job, back when it was still an option, and handed it back

Are you referring to 10 years ago, when I was a kid, and you threw a tantrum because I started a discussion about doing a character wipe for sake of balancing the game? Mega lol on that last part, given that that's pretty much your plan now. Guess I'm a visionary.

As said, he has the archive to do with as he pleases, and he's yet to pick that up

Do with as I please, as long as it's not where everybody knows to look for it (i.e., msremake.com) and presumably rebrand and everything to distance it from you, the guy whose IP this isn't

Been in constant communication with him

I came back most recently when some community members came to me concerned about your mental well being. The "constant communication" is 12 pages of mostly rambling insanity of the same sort everyone saw on the forums, in my inbox. I replied maybe 10 times in that whole thing. And right off the bat in there, I said I would take MS:C off your hands. I noted, conservatively, that maybe I myself wouldn't be the one who ultimately resurrects it, but I would at the very least be the caretaker and look for a suitable replacement.

Long, long after that, I said I wanted everything, with the intent to take up the mantle since you continued to be cryptic and insane. Soon after you told me about some master plan involving remaking everything, I said no, you said you were going to, and I delivered my ultimatum. That was my last communication with you, several weeks ago.

So no, that's not constant communication. You were acting batsh*t insane, I did my best to talk you down. But I'm certain now that that was all an act as well, because of how much of a psychologist you are.

He also has a kid to deal with and thus lacks the time

Don't you bring my daughter into this as another of your game pieces. I can manage my own life. And I can manage what happens to the game, even if I'm indisposed.

If you're trying to kill the game out of concern for my wellbeing, I'm flattered

I can guarantee you that no one at present is trying to sabotage the game for your sake except yourself.
 

Thothie

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Well, it can't continue here due to threats to both me and the host's businesses and life. But like I've repeatedly said, you can do whatever you like with it elsewhere, however much I doubt you'll have anymore luck with it. This is a development wall I spent years trying to climb over with your full support.

The only continue here involves a reset button and severe change to the management system, which gets us both fiscal and legal support for the game.

Though MSC servers will continue indefinitely.
 

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Well, it can't continue here due to threats to both me and the host's businesses and life. But like I've repeatedly said, you can do whatever you like with it elsewhere, however much I doubt you'll have anymore luck with it. This is a development wall I spent years trying to climb over with your full support.

The only continue here involves a reset button and severe change to the management system, which gets us both fiscal and legal support for the game.

Though MSC servers will continue indefinitely.

What threats? What legal support? You keep saying this stuff, but give no insight as to what it all is, I get confidentiality and such, but it all seems like hot air and a false defense.

Regardless, whatever you do the threats will not stop. Even if you "remake" or "redo" everything. Whoever it is, they'll track you down if they are hell bent enough. Your reasoning is null.
 

Thothie

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I've already had a rather lengthy discussion with the individual so afflicted, and we've come to an understanding. (And frankly I'm not entirely in agreement with the law that placed him in his red flag status, but I don't get a say in that state's laws.)

The hope is the new management and game system will make it less apt to cause a repeat of the event. The problem seems to occur primarily when people start centering their hate on other people, instead of the game. The veterans here will likely be unaffected, but there's very few left.

The legal involves very old friends in Boston and the fiscal an executive of a non-profit and ex-wife who is still deciding whether or not they want their name on the effort, but helped convinced the resident alien not to simply take the website down.

Again, don't worry about me, I'm covered as can be, and have the support of the best people I know in this effort.
 

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There was no plan but a slow death, until two weeks before then, and I think I kept you all quite up to date as to how the development end was going (specifically nowhere). We haven't had a functioning patch for almost six years.
i'm rather confused about this. from my own experience testing the alpha build relatively extensively, it *did* seem to be functioning fine for the most (if not all, it was hard to tell how much of it was due to the listen server), though admittedly it's been quite a long time since then. i just remember it getting hung up on waiting until new weapons got implemented, which never did seem to happen?

i do understand that you've explained multiple times now that the legal issues mean you need to start from zero regardless, but i'd still like to get some closure on what happened to that build of the mod, at least
 

Thothie

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For the sake of the archivists..... The development paradox is, yeah, another issue that kinda makes this all moot. We've had issues with a lot of old characters loading into the game, nor can we seem to strike a balance with the new code and the old scripts. The NOV2015a patch is in this very hard to achieve sweet spot, where all the maps load, and the scripts are at the edge of causing exploding, but the only builds we have available are just before, and just after that. The old code also has a potential security issue, but the host seems willing to put up with it, for now, as while it's been discovered, no one has taken it to its ultimate end, and the boxes are fairly self-contained.

So we've tried, several dozen times, to either update the old scripts or pull back the new scripts to a point where both all the maps will load and the game retains functionality, and even in the most functional alpha we have, most older characters fail to load under FN, and the game is less stable than ever. Not entirely sure if this is a code end or script end issue, or some interaction between, but we've tried so many different recombinations and rebuilds over the past few years, that it's pretty clear there's no way forward. ...and then we kinda ran out of time to try due to the drama behind this.

So even without said drama, the best way forward I can see is to tear the whole thing down and start from scratch, which is something we would need to do to address most of the issues being complained about anyways. Otherwise we're just going to keep slamming our head into this wall, and I fear that any new branch elsewhere is going to run into that same reality. The game is built on an unstable house of cards, and it's really the foundations that need to be reworked at this point.

Not that we can't keep MSC running meantime, so it'll have no affect on the players, only the direction of future releases. (Well, and the forums, as this will be my last developer blog - handing the process over to the more blatantly conglomerated identities.)
 

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Thoth, I hear you on (most of) these points.

MSC has hit several technical limitations and it's difficult to update/maintain.

You have legal and financial backing to start fresh, give Master Sword new life.

You have led MSC for so long, it feels like it's yours.

But you still haven't sufficiently answered one basic question, without being cryptic:

WHY does MSC have to die?

You could easily work this new project of yours in parallel with MS:C sustainment. And if you're going to be fully-focused on the new, then let someone else run the old.

You've stated "legal reasons", your SO, and talked about the red-flagged stalker -- were you court-ordered to abandon MSC, or by your SO? Do you see how, from the outside looking in, we have no idea what is going on? Some clarity would help.

How long is this new project going to take? Why can't MSC exist alongside it? Would a change in leadership/direction for old MSC, while you work on the new thing, really be that bad?
 
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Thothie

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Well... Jeeze... I am being reminded how bad I am with TL;DR.

The truth is very little is actually changing in the short term. MSC will continue as is, for as long as the host is willing to continue it.

But I've given up on trying to patch this thing. It's causing too much trauma for too many people, that's spilled over into too many real lives. The game and development model just seems to rub too many people the wrong way. It's no longer helping more than its hurting its fans, and neither I, nor the game's new support, want to risk gathering more while it's in such a state.

Nonetheless, enough of an outpour of support came across for me be willing to support the creation of something new, and hopefully fundamentally better, with all these failures in mind, from the ground up, and maybe the veteran diehards will finally get those fundamental changes they've always wanted. Meanwhile, the old game is still there, and will eventually get some shiny new packaging (which will at least put an end to the endless default config complaints).
 

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How do I get out of this box?
MSC will continue as is, for as long as the host is willing to continue it.

So, does that mean "enjoy it while it lasts, because when I'm fed up, I’m dropping it like a dead baby"?

Given the outcry towards this situation, I don't think many people in the community are happy with this ultimatum.

As for death threats, that deplorable, I’m sure nobody disagrees with me there. Being realistic though, getting a death threat shouldn't be taken seriously. Since I started teaching and helping people with their home lives, I've received god knows how many - and let's be fair, since it's not virtual - they know where I live, they know what I look like and they know a lot more about me. Does that mean I should care? no, not even slightly.
If he/she dropped your name/address etc into the death threat, then report it to the authorities.
 
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