Dwarves still not patched out?

TheOysterHippopotami

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The only map where the fog won't go away is Edana Sewers so I assume something must be different about how it's working in that particular map. I have no problem turning off snow in ms_snow, for example, but on Edana Sewers it keeps turning the green fog back on after about 5-10 seconds after I type clearsky.

I have not, however, tried "day" there so maybe that command will work.

Edit: We just took a trip to Edana Sewers and the fog was red this time and clearsky actually turned the red fog off. what the heck?
 
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Kanta

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The fog in edanasewers comes in red, green, and blue! Clearsky and day both clear it out lol
 

Thothie

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Beat me to it...

...After I wiped my characters and rolled back to certified legit NOV2015a, tried to figure why this video capture broke, spent time researching that, fixed it, recorded crap, changed accounts, and started uploading to Youtube... So, may as well let it finish:
*shrug*

Think he's just gaslighting me at this point, but, just in case...

The map definition just fills out the same script var, so I canna think why it'd be any different. Most of the current core map compiles predate having "weather" as a map property option, so most are going through the script system the traditional way, as most older maps do, including ms_snow (which has a "clear;clear;cear" due to a subsequent recompile, but has a map_startup.script with "snow;snow;snow;clear".)

Code:
"fog_green;fog_green;fog_green;fog_green;fog_red;fog_red"
Think it'll only come in blue if the weather string corrupted from a legit trans under NOV2015a, though sometimes the red/green transition results in brief pretty colors, under that same version.
 

zeus9860

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Some stuff to consider in the long run, since you guys are talking about bringing some old maps back to life. Mind you, this is nothing more than just a suggestion to revive old content, help new players and make looting overall interisting as you play any map. Lets be honest, the loot is the major factor that drives this game right now, if this is to remain the major factor in the future, i would advise changing the system into something less boring/tedious. Having the sensation of being somewhat rewarded as you play any maps is a good feeling. Anyways, time to move towards the actual suggestions.

Base ingredients to forge armor, secondary ingredients for armor and their potential spawn locations suggestions:
If you are making the phoenix armor change, might aswell do the same with some of the other armors. I would advise to use the golden armor as a base/primary ingredient to forge any other set of armor that uses the forge (and no, not in the same logic as sorc_villa, 1 plate should be enough to forge already existing items). Perhaps the dark armor aswell if the armor uses dark-related magics (acid/poison/dark/whatever). Let's call the secondary ingredients "gemstones" just as an example for armor forging.

Basically this:

-Phoenix armor = gold plate + whatever ingredients to make up the formula to forge the item.

-Envenomed plate (hopefully a slightly buffed version, by buff i don't mean more resistances but actually something worth using it) = dark armor (sir gerics plate was the name, right?) + whatever ingredients.

-Fire aura (buff this one aswell in a similiar fashion, PA renders this useless in all aspects and cold immunity is easy to achieve thanks to ms_snow, so yeah) = gold plate + secondary ingredients

As for the secondary ingredients, i think they should be tied to the map theme or elemental focus. If the map is desert themed or has a fire elemental theme to it, it would spawn something related to those terms that identify the map. In other words, this:

Aluhandra, Aleyesu and Phlames (for example), would spawn the same secondary ingredients to forge items. Make the drop rates better on the older maps that are rarelly played because they lack loot (Phlames has enough loot as it is, so i think these ingredients should be added as a cherry on top with some extreme luck on maps similiar to this one, something equivalent to symbols).

Some maps have a focus on two elements or a specific theme and a slightly different elemental approach, shad_palace is a perfect example of this. Anyone can see the map is tied with desert themed areas. The elemental focus in this map is lightning, not fire, so i would assume that this map could drop either fire or lightning based secondary ingredients.

Repeat the same process for other secondary ingredients, mostly focused on maps that lack specific loot, so they actually have a purpose in this game. Maps like idemarks tower need some attention, they are good maps but not rewarding to the point of having people visit them more than once, so people will just play the loot focused maps and ignore these other ones. Rainbow maps should drop any ingredient at random with smaller drop rates, reason should be obvious and rainbow maps have the tendency to s*ck ass anyways (doesn't apply to all maps).


"Epic loot" adjustments, proper tier gear for the map lvl and redefining chests suggestions:

Remember the old "epic chests"? The ones that used to spawn "insane loot" back when lodagond-4 was released, those same chests that used to spawn things like fire tomahawks left and right. I think a change similiar to this added to the game would be a good addition, most importantly if it makes a direct impact in the older chest types used in older maps (aka the brown chests with crap loot most of the time, i would rename them as legacy chests with something like this in mind tbh), pick some extra items and add them to the drop table on these chests, make the drop rates lesser than doing the original maps directly, so people could actually play anywhere and have a random chance at getting a reasonable drop in any old map. Items like: novablade, thunderaxe, great axe, halberd, dragoon lance, fire star, perfect morning star, boneR blade, ice staff, flamelick, litch tongue, fire/poison lizard skins, gladiator armor, chromatic vest, rune blade, rune axe, non elemental crescent blades, greater thunder axe, lightning rod, blizzard/volcano/freezing sphere/poison cloud/acidic bolt/chain lightning/lightning storm/summon guardian scrolls, fire/cold/stab helmets, wofl charms (both regular, shadow and winter), etc... Alot of these items should be added to a random drop table with odds like 1/5 to 1/25 (depends on the map and type of chest or perhaps have multiple drops scale the odds in this way, with 1/5 being the initial odds for 1 item, 1/15 for a second drop and 1/25 for an additional third drop) per run to spawn in the chest, regardless of amount of players present.
This spices up the chests with a wide variety of loot for the exploring player to see drop while they explore many maps. I would apply this to most of the chests that are useless in the many maps that are in the game right now. There are plenty of scattered chests out there and they reward the player with the same old crap (hp/mp potions, gold, chance at some green pot and sometimes some random weapon from a list of 10 or so).
And has the game progresses on, this list of items should be "tuned" to represent better items in the long run. I would expect t30-35 items to show up in this list in some locations, this is mostly focused towards "helping new players gear up as they play", they would not have to rely entirelly on specific maps and other players to get loot some of the loot, the only downside is that this loot is "shared" in the same chest for all players present. Like in the old times, which could bring alot of ninja reactions back into the community. Having something like this puts the entire issue of having t15-30 items in lvl 40+ maps, which to me, makes no sense at all unless it is for forging/questing.

If i am playing a lvl 40 or 40+ map, i would expect the loot there to be adjusted with drops from t35 to t45 accordingly. This would make the most sense to me in the end. I think this approach should be considered to some extent. The amount of times playing lvl 35 or 40+ maps and getting lvl 20 drops is just too damn high. To make things alot easier/less stressful for the player, using forges to get new gear is much better than forcing people to do 50-100 runs of the same map to get 1 item drop. Having more generous drops with ingredients to forge many items is a better approach than having to rely in pure rng for 1 lucky player.

With this in mind, i think the chests in this game could use some sort of rework as to how they function. Brown chests should be considered legacy chests that have older content in them as rewards, the grey chests, should remain as individual chests with loot restricted to each player, some individual chests could take use of the "epic item list" mentioned above, except i would limit the drop to 1 with 1/10 odds of having that extra random item spawn, the reason why these should share the same idea is simply down to some maps using these chests lacking goodies or the fact that these chests replaced the brown chests almost entirelly. The artifact chests, these chests should define "UNIQUE LOOT" for that map, any item added to this chest should remain untouched in the long run, this simply means that spreading loot into maps has to be done more carefully. Repeating lodagond-4 or wicardoven all over again with new maps would be a bad idea, too many items focused in 1 map, i think it is best to spread out the new items as much as possible or if they have to be unique to a specific map, do it so but also limit it to that item only.
 

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Remember the old "epic chests"? The ones that used to spawn "insane loot" back when lodagond-4 was released, those same chests that used to spawn things like fire tomahawks left and right.
Which version was that again?

Basically this: [trade in armor + ingredients = new armor]
Doable, though we can't do too many of these multimap forge quests exactly this way, as you won't have room for all those different crafting items, and simply requiring those six in differing amounts loses you the bait factor. Might have to resort to quest data items.

With this in mind, i think the chests in this game could use some sort of rework as to how they function. Brown chests should be considered legacy chests that have older content in them as rewards, the grey chests, should remain as individual chests with loot restricted to each player, some individual chests could take use of the "epic item list" mentioned above, except i would limit the drop to 1 with 1/10 odds of having that extra random item spawn, the reason why these should share the same idea is simply down to some maps using these chests lacking goodies or the fact that these chests replaced the brown chests almost entirelly. The artifact chests, these chests should define "UNIQUE LOOT" for that map, any item added to this chest should remain untouched in the long run, this simply means that spreading loot into maps has to be done more carefully. Repeating lodagond-4 or wicardoven all over again with new maps would be a bad idea, too many items focused in 1 map, i think it is best to spread out the new items as much as possible or if they have to be unique to a specific map, do it so but also limit it to that item only.
Artifact Chests were rendered more or less obsolete by individualized chests, save on those rare occasions where they give multiple options (might make an integrated option for that which doesn't entail spawning another script). Plan was to make all the chests individualized. Meh, there's a few dozen descriptions of the chest rework plans around here somewhere (I'd normally say RTMFT, but well, that's like reading the Eaton Collection at this point).
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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Well I seem to be unable to recreate the green fog bug I've been experiencing since time immemorial. this is the first time it hasn't behaved this way for me.
-Phoenix armor = gold plate + whatever ingredients to make up the formula to forge the item.

-Envenomed plate (hopefully a slightly buffed version, by buff i don't mean more resistances but actually something worth using it) = dark armor (sir gerics plate was the name, right?) + whatever ingredients.

-Fire aura (buff this one aswell in a similiar fashion, PA renders this useless in all aspects and cold immunity is easy to achieve thanks to ms_snow, so yeah) = gold plate + secondary ingredients
I like the idea of using existing armors as forge ingredients for new armors.
the loot is the major factor that drives this game right now, if this is to remain the major factor in the future
please no.
 

MS:C community

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@MS:C community - might be in similar vein to the above "getting carried away", but I had the the pregnant thought of making the Aluhandra requisite six five, and give every player who did more than 10%MaxHP damage to the boss a gem. So it'd be two full runs of Alahundra, but if you had a party, they could all do it at once (and no lewt ninjas get hanged). Can't split stacks, so it shouldn't turn into too much of a twink fest.

That'd mean setting up a system to track damage (game has it internally, but the script system can't access it). That wouldn't be too hard to do with the scriptflags system, however, and it'd likely be useful elsewhere. So might be worth a small amount of added effort.
Kinda late here, but this is a great idea tbh
 

zeus9860

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Which version was that again?
I believe the chest came to existance in may 2008 and potentially fixed in jun 2008? Can't be 100% sure though. J-M, might know more about these things than i, since he keeps track of most things in this community, while i rely mostly on my memory and past experiences.

The last thing i recall about that chest situation was right after the lodagond-4 release or so. Some chests in other maps were spawning greater loot that were commonly shared across many maps. The greatest item to spawn was the fire tomahawk, since it was a lodagond-4 item. Of course, you dismissed this back then as something "unwanted". But right now, it would be rather usefull to revive older content.

Doable, though we can't do too many of these multimap forge quests exactly this way, as you won't have room for all those different crafting items, and simply requiring those six in differing amounts loses you the bait factor. Might have to resort to quest data items.
Honestly, i think you should release like, 6 secondary ingredients and that is it. I think you mentioned using "gemstones" or something like that in some previous comment, while this seems a "simple" way of making secondary ingredients, i do feel like it is a proper approach to use base items + gemstones to infuse them with power, which would lead to the creation of a new item entirelly.
I would expect each secondary ingredient to have its own rarity, for example, a red gemstone would surely be the most common thing since you have mentioned multiple times that "fire is the strongest base element", if you were to add a dark gemstone, i would expect the rarity of this secondary ingredient to be less frequent, not in abysmal ways, but instead taking a little bit more effort to obtain.

Let us say that Phoenix armor is essentially gold plate + 3 red gemstones. Make it so that secondary ingredients have a decent drop chance for each player present. Like, for example, red gemstones have a 10% chance of spawning if you play solo or in group, but each player has a 10% chance of getting the red gemstone in their loot table.

Red gemstone represents fire. 10%
Blue gemstone represents cold. 9%
Yellow gemstone represents lightning. 8%
Corrupted(green?) gemstone represents acid/poison/vampyric. 7%
Brown gemstone represents earth. 6%
White gemstone represents holy. 5%
Black/Grey gemstone represents dark. 5%

Now let us use Envenomed plate as the next example. Essentially dark plate as base + 3 dark gemstones. These dark gemstones should have a lower drop chance vs red gemstones, let us go with 5% instead of 10% as an example. This samething should apply to other secondary gemstones, lightning, cold, holy, corrupted and perhaps earth (if it ever sees the light of day). Cold and lightning should be closer to 10% than 5%, while holy and corrupted should be closer to 5%. I'm using dark gemstones as an example, when in reality it makes more sense to use corrupted gemstones in this case since the base plate is dark and the final result is corrupted, not dark. I'm using dark gemstones to show the low and highs of these gemstones.

Future items that focus in 2 different types of elements, lets say you release a new weapon that is dark by nature and applies cold dot. This item should use base (weapon) item + X dark gemstones + Y cold gemstones. With this in mind, you could make all sorts of combinations whenever you decide to add a new item to the game. To avoid people instantly getting all items on release, perhaps you should cap gemstone stacks with each patch, whenever you release a new item using this system, increase the cap a little and request more than the previous cap, but not by alot. For example, you start of with 3 as the current cap for some older items, then whenever you add a new item, change the cap to 5 and request 5 gemstones instead of 3, repeat the samething in the future. Gemstones should be secondary ingredients spread out across multiple maps with maps lacking unique drops to have the best drop rates, so people would eventually get enough gemstones to reach the cap and putting "more and more" of the samething in small amounts is a good way to keep people going back to older maps and get more gemstones. Maps rigged with loot should have very minimal drop rates on the gemstones (i would cut down the previous % by 5 times, red = 2%, dark = 1%). Having 6 gemstones and use them in combinations to create items seems like the way to go, to avoid having 200 ingredients added to the game, which is both good and bad.

Lets create a new item out of nowhere to further display the combination process for newer items that use more than 1 type of gemstone. We have a new axe that does 3 types of damage per swing. Dark + vampyric + fire dot. Lets say the base item is the axe of balance, this new item should require a combination of red/black and corrupted gemstones.
Since it is a new item, the previous cap of 3, has to be increased to 5. So this new axe should be something along these lines:
axe of balance + 5 dark gemstones + 3 corrupted gemstones + 5 red gemstones. If the cap was 3, people could have up to 3 of each before item release, axe of balance could already exist or not in the players hands. In the end, the player would have to get 2 additional dark gemstones and 2 red gemstones to complete the recipe.


Artifact Chests were rendered more or less obsolete by individualized chests, save on those rare occasions where they give multiple options (might make an integrated option for that which doesn't entail spawning another script). Plan was to make all the chests individualized. Meh, there's a few dozen descriptions of the chest rework plans around here somewhere (I'd normally say RTMFT, but well, that's like reading the Eaton Collection at this point).
I do get it why all chests were meant to be individual chests, i guess that was a way of fighting the "loot issues" the old formula of the game had? Then again, i think outright removing the other 2 previous chests is a bad approach. It should be instead 3 different loot systems, which it kinda is, right now, to some extent but no 100% accurate.

Also, i did read most of the things said here, probably skipped a few comments in page 5 and 6 out of lazyness or did some quick reading on some of the comments in those pages. Except i can't keep track of everything said here with all the "pointing fingers at each other" debacle going on, which has lost interest. So i would rather leave you guys doing that to each other and instead focus on the references that actually could change the game for the better on the longer run. Which is why i am making these comments, they could be somewhat repetitive of what has already been said, but the idea is to "expand" on these thoughts. Also, alot of these current sugestions were ideas mentioned years ago. Via the forums, ingame or steam chat. If there is something this community doesn't lack of, is suggestions and ideas to improve the game. Most of these things were discarded and the same old formula used over and over again, which brought us to this current situation we are discussing over.

please no.
Both you and i already know that is going to be the major factor in the game even if lore maps start dishing out more frequently, no loot in a specific map? Lol ok, i'll play it once or twice and leave it behind is the kind of mentality most people will have while playing. This is essentially the main issue with playing some specific maps, which is why i suggested picking up a pletora of items and adding them to the rewards table to actually keep players interested in random playthroughs in most of the maps that are ignored. Right now the only "epic" reward to look after in these situations is like the flamelick? It spawns in a multitude of places, mostly in wrong maps/areas that already have greater loot at some point. Kinda beats the purpose really. This, along with the idea of having gemstones with different drop rates based on utility scattered around maps in different manners (maps with unique loot have much lower drop rates for gemstones while maps that involve exploring and have no uniques should use higher drop rate values so they are more rewarding when it comes to collecting gemstones and non uniques).

If it isn't loot, then it is xp. Once people are done getting loot, they focus in maxing their skills. Lore is the third factor that drives the game, or at least, should be driving.

Me personally, the things that drive me the most is: proper challenge adequate for the player, lore maps and their concepts, loot. I used to be mostly focused towards xp/loot and challeging stuff back in the day. By challenging stuff, i mean moments similiar to the lodagond series testing, lodagond-4 was that one first map i participated in testing that was actually pushing the community to group up together to get the boss down, and only a few players were capable of being usefull at the time due to the limited gear. The_wall had a similiar effect, the gear was limited and outdated, only 3 usefull items when map was released and only 2 of them were decent enough for damage. Except the_wall relies alot in crazy hacks that are both OP and annoying, that also ruins the experience of the map unless you drink your set of potions to nerf down these effects. The thing that initially made me enjoy this map was the challenge alone, along with the loot factor. I solo'd this map way too many times, even attempted to solo with my 550hp alt at one point but people started joining midway of the run, so i ended up doing half the map or so solo (basically reached the 3rd elf encounter and people joined). Never got to beat the map completly solo in my alt, though the tactics were mostly down to speed/regen potion + all kinds of resistance/protection potions and rely alot in ranged attacks with hxbow (non nerfed one btw, this was the first version of the_wall, the one lacking bearclaws/holy lance or the map being split into 2) and nerfing down hit rates with lightning in closed sections. It was slow and painful process to attempt this.

Think i am done making comments for the next couple of hours, too much time invested into writting these novels and the chances are that none of these things will ever be implemented for many reasons that could both be logical or not. Just like the many other hundreds or thousands of old suggestions coming from me and other people. Out of all the suggestions i have offered so far, i think the only one that came to reality was elemental staves, with the phlames/dark staves being somewhat close to what i originally suggested publicly and to caluminium. I was the one that actually requested Caluminium to request staves as an unique new reward for his first map, and it worked out in the end. The samething could be said about the wizard boss fight (the final boss in phlames is a wizard, though i had no say on how the boss fight works, simply suggested a boss like that), in the end it was surprising to see that your suggestion was somewhat considered to some extent.
 

Thothie

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Well I seem to be unable to recreate the green fog bug I've been experiencing since time immemorial. this is the first time it hasn't behaved this way for me.
Clearsky was broke entirely, once upon a time.

I believe the chest came to existance in may 2008 and potentially fixed in jun 2008? Can't be 100% sure though. J-M, might know more about these things than i, since he keeps track of most things in this community, while i rely mostly on my memory and past experiences.

The last thing i recall about that chest situation was right after the lodagond-4 release or so. Some chests in other maps were spawning greater loot that were commonly shared across many maps. The greatest item to spawn was the fire tomahawk, since it was a lodagond-4 item. Of course, you dismissed this back then as something "unwanted". But right now, it would be rather usefull to revive older content.
Last 2008 archive doesn't even have a global treasure list, so I've no idea how that happened. :\ Might have been such a fubar when the global treasure list was first added though - tis the only way I could think it could happen, since, at the moment, every chest runs on its own script. Assuming it did, however, yeah, unintentional.

ingredients have a decent drop chance for each player present
Idea was to give a 100% drop chance for each run, but require X# of them, so the progress towards the goal would remain consistent, with a few maps only requiring one (ms_wicardoven, as the story need only be viewed once, and oceancrossing, as I'm not real confident about how completable it is).

If it isn't loot, then it is xp. Once people are done getting loot, they focus in maxing their skills. Lore is the third factor that drives the game, or at least, should be driving.
While I have no confidence in the claim that people will start running maps just for tickets to Deralia Theater plays either, yet would definitely like to see more lore, a recurring complaint seems to be power creep, despite the fact that there seems to be a demand to keep the bombs which were a continuation of that. If some of the latest map encounters were somewhat nerfed, there'd be less need for more powerful items, some of the existing offenders could be nerfed (eg. one active potion effect at a go). We could thus keep the level cap at 50, and continue to retroactively balance without having to continue said power creep at the same time, while watching one effort defeat the other.

But yes, sadly, loot will likely continue to be a form of bait for most, as the newest high end maps don't offer much in the way of other options for fun besides slaughter (nor do most maps), even if some of the newer mid-level ones do. For those players that are already at the level wall and have it all, I suppose it'll be a matter of consumables, and maybe later, upgrade materials - but the idea behind the ingredient system was to encourage players not so burdened to visit some of the less loved maps, or at least force them to visit a wider variety of maps for certain pivotal tier upgrades, rather than doing the same thing over and over, hoping for a rare spawn. Additionally, it gives places for maxed out players to escort them to, where they too could gather materials for whatever twinking they want to do, and thus not be a total waste of their time.

So, while I do like the idea of adding more such foragable tier critical items, and spreading the map love around a bit in the process, before Dynamic Quests get in, I am in a bit of a rush to get the next patch out, and having so many unique ingredients would require a compressed quest item system dedicated to said. Thus, we'll probably only see this for the Phoenix Armor, for now.
 

zeus9860

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These ideas do not imply that you work on them instantly, like i said, the game should have other priorities right now that need more attention than actually releasing new content, mostly fixing some stuff and releasing in the sven engine and eventually fixing any major issues with that change. With this in mind, i would hold off any new content for the time being. I know it sucks for the people playing the mod or the ones that have done everything, but the amount of people that have everything accomplished so far is very small compared to the actual amount of people that, could still benefit from playing the game for one reason or another. Also, holding content for a longer period of time, gives the opportunity to rethink on said content, if people want to change something and what not.

The same goes for replying to all of these things, if you think it slows you down immensely, then perhaps limit yourself to a smaller time frame to make replies.
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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despite the fact that there seems to be a demand to keep the bombs which were a continuation of that.
I can't speak for anyone else, but from my perspective it's a waste do a bunch of work and then scrap it when you could just nerf it. I think you said you were going to nerf the drop rate at the very least and/or make it impossible to horde them. It won't be a problem if they are sufficiently rare or nerfed enough to not be completely OP.

If they just drop like other potions do in most maps, though, it's going to be a huge, game breaking problem, and I would definitely prefer to see them scrapped entirely than to have that happen, as much as I hate to see work go to waste.

idea: make the nukes really rare and use one of the nukes as one of the ingredients for a forge item.
 
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Kanta

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idea: make the nukes really rare and use one of the nukes as one of the ingredients for a forge item.
If its for a forge item, then I don't see how this idea is any different than "scrap them entirely" because nobody would use them as weapons. See; Tomahawks.
 

zeus9860

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If its for a forge item, then I don't see how this idea is any different than "scrap them entirely" because nobody would use them as weapons. See; Tomahawks.
My issue with this is using consumables like this as forge ingredients... i mean, it would make some sort of sense in some occasions, like creating explosive/elemental bolts or arrows. But creating weapons or armor...? Idk. Ignoring their existance after putting effort into creating them is a bad move, just adjust the items properly, it shouldn't be that hard.

Also, people do not use tomahawks for 2 reasons: rarity and lvl requirement (was it 25? If its 15, then nvm). Tomahawks are located in lodagond mostly. Which makes them rare as it takes quite a bit of time to get just one of those. And they do suck nowadays, but they were used when they were introduced back in the day. It was a mediocre item that could do some decent support action.

It's pretty much the same situation with crescent blades, these are somewhat scattered in multiple maps, but still rare. They suck ass unless you pot up and their lvl requirement is too high. This item should either get a lvl req drop or an overall buff in damage. Other than this, it is a good item to use in forge, preferably not in multiple units (eg: 2 fire, 2 cold to create 1 greater item that does relatively the same damage...)
 

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I don't think nukes would go into disuse due to that, simply because they have functionality that might be more valuable than getting another copy of the forge item - however, they also don't serve the purpose. If a map has nukes, you already have a loot motivation to visit it. Idea is to give some of the better maps, that are lacking loot, a boost, so you see more of the world, and have a consistent sense of progression in the process.

If anything, it'd be more logical to have forge items to get nukes from the Sorc alchemist or some such, but I suspect it'd be abused, so not liable to do that either.
 
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