Lanethan's Musings on Games and Design

Lanethan

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Hey all, here's the first installment.


Lanethan's Musings 1
Tuesday, February 20, 2007
3:45AM

This will be a thread for my thoughts on game design. You (the reader) are encouraged to interact with me, to bounce ideas off of myself and others in the thread. I will primarily be discussing game design theories, both basic and advanced, and how they apply to the projects I'm working on now.

I decided to start this series of posts for a number of reasons: Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, I often find myself wanting for a creative outlet, a place to discuss my ideas on game design (theory as well as practice). Secondly, it is becoming increasingly important for me to write these thoughts down, and to discuss them with others. There is only so much that a man can learn simply by thinking and observing on his own, for true knowledge and understanding only comes when a person interacts with others, and exchanges information and observations.

And so I come to my first topic, and one that is fundamental to the theory of game design: Interaction.

What seperates games from other forms of popular media? Television, film, books and magazines.. while some of these offer a limited degree of interactivity, none of them come close to the video game format.

Computer interface designers have often understood one of the key elements in designing a good interface is the (extremely tangible) concept of feedback. When the user does something, he should understand that what he did had some effect, whether it be a negative result, positive result, or somewhere in between. When you press a button, you expect to see results, and in some cases hear results. Interaction with video games takes this very same premise and brings it to the next level: Not only is feedback important in any game, it is essential to creating what I describe as the "Player Environment."

The "Player Environment" is a loose concept describing the general expectations we expect when we are playing a game. It is comprised of a few key concepts:

1. When we interact with the game, we expect the game to interact back, whether in text format (Remember trying to open locked doors in Doom without the proper keycard?), action on screen (Fire that pistol!), sound effects (Doom, once again, played a grunting noise when the player attempted to 'use' something that was unusable. This "negative feedback" is one of the most recognizable ever created).

2. The player expects that, if he attempts to do something in the gameworld, whether this attempt failed or not, he will be notified within a short period of time that he had tried to do something. Nothing is more frustrating than an instance where a player thinks he can do something, generally because he's been doing similar tasks for a long time, and has no idea that the game isn't even recognizing his attempt.

Interactivity is what defines "Games" as a medium. Essentially, all games boil down to one concept: the tug of war match. Only in this case, the match is between the player(s) and the game system itself, or between more than one player with the game system acting as the 'rope'. All players expect that when they pull on the rope, the game will react and pull back. Thus, game designs are not successful if the player has no idea that the game is responding to their actions.

Tug of war applied to various famous games:

Doom- This game is a tug of war between the player, who is moving through the game world, collecting powerups and fighting monsters, and the game logic, which is actively attempting to destroy the player based on its own set of rules.

Pong- This game uses the 'system as the rope' method: Players compete head to head, using the ruleset of the game, to defeat the other in paddleball combat.

Mortal Kombat- Either player vs. player or player vs. system, but in both cases it is the 'system as the rope' method: Even when players are fighting against the computer, mastery of the fighting system, timing and reaction to changing circumstances, is the real battle here.


In summary, what then comprises good interactivity in games?
1. Feedback is essential. The player should know they are interacting with the game.
2. System reaction is essential. The player should know that the game is interacting with them.

Very basic, but often forgotten rules. As a challenge, name one game you thought had good interactivity, and one that you thought had bad interactivity, and then explain why.

My answer to challenge:
Good- Super Mario Brothers (NES). This game's interactivity was, while it may seem basic now, quite revolutionary for the time. While there were only a few buttons to press, each was given a distinct action that never changed throughout the design- 'B' Button made Mario run and shoot fireballs, 'A' Button made Mario jump (he attempted to jump even if it was impossible in his current state.. the game's negative feedback feels great even to modern gamers), and the D-Pad moved him as expected.
Bad- Friday the Thirteenth (NES). Including glaring flaws in the interface itself (left on the game map does not always mean left in the gameworld! That's a major discrepency, and one which there is no indication of), and problems with interactivity (when moving inside houses, sometimes button presses seem completely ignored, and you feel like you have to force your character to move), this is badly designed game.
 

Netrogor

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I'll try to answer your challenge, but I will use newer games rather than really old ones...

Good- Dark Messiah, an excellent game. Everything you did, to the detail of a bow that could spawn a rope from wooden planks & even trees, had their reactions. If you jumped, your character grunted, if you went into stealth mode the HUD changed into a more transparent setup, and if you tried to open a locked or un-openable door you would get a sound like the Doom one but specifically for this game.

Bad- Crow, for the PC. Based off the popular movie, and horrible to the point of gagging, sudden vomiting of recently ate food stuffs, and desire of suicide should you play it. The movie was good, but in the movie when the hero kicked someone; his leg didn't go right through them. I would expect the game to acknowledge physical contact better, since the plot doesn't allow for the hero/character to be a Ghost that flies through walls.


How's that for answering your challenge, using newer games of course, Lanethan?
 

Lanethan

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Sounds about right to me. Glad somebody thought it was interesting. ;)
 

The Man In Black

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Or he was the only person who wasn't too lazy to attempt to read it >_<
 

Thothie

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I'm still trying to figure how you even apply this to something like MSC. :|
 

Netrogor

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It's in off-topic Thothie. Lanethan, as he mentioned, is seeking an output & input device of the sorts for creative thoughts. He wishes to discuss game design at this moment, and I figured I'd help him... thus far I appear to be the only one who has helped him.

He used old games, excellent classics with horrible classics. I used newer ones, and a "middle-age" one might say for the gaming community (meaning it isn't quite yet old & it isn't new).

In layman's terms; Lanethan wants people's opinions on games that are excellent in terms of how user-friendly they are, and then some opinions on absolutely horrible ones.

At least, that is all he appears to request of us for now... since he placed it before us all as a "Challenge," if you care to read it. So, MiB lets hear from you... some well-thought out (seriously) input on games that are user-friendly, and on some that aren't.

I find it welcome for anybody else willing to post actual input on this as well; since Lanethan did challenge us, now didn't he? 8)
 

Lanethan

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Thanks, Net. Precisely right, but I don't really want you guys to feel like you have to name games or whatever, but just some discusison about the topic is good for me. I'll probably be posting another musing in a few days time (maybe tonight even). The topic? Roleplaying games. Much more specific, and perhaps more interesting to you guys on this forum.
 

Netrogor

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Hmmm... perhaps...

As to naming off games; you gave a challenge out to those willing to answer it. I did, and I will continue to give replies that I actually put an effort forth in thinking out; albeit this is in Off-Topic it seems like the sort of thing that should be under Serious Discussion... but it does belong here since it doesn't directly involve the mod.

As to a topic on roleplaying games... how in-depth is it going to be; or will it be a nice summarization that is straight to the point, to simply probe a few opinions out?

If it is in-depth; will it include things like obsessive roleplayers, who have issues with "metagaming" and "powergaming" (this hints towards people from TSRP, The Specialist Role Play)... That'd be interesting to get some clear points on what those two things are, primarily to show how obsessive it is to make games realistic to the point of desiring that they become real-life...

Well, I can only hope a few other people start giving out helpful input too... so far people like Man in Black have made sure this section of the forums lives up to its name, Off-Topic.
 

ITS'aME'aMARIO!!!!

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I read that whole first post Lanethan. :D
(shame on you MiB =P)
I suppose it is very frustrating when you play a game press a button and NOTHING is happening. I suppose this reminds me of a recent game that I thought was pretty good... but mostly just a pretty remake of goldeneye, but crappier underneath.

not to just name games buuuut.

Time Splitters 2... Supposedly it was mainly a multiplayer game but it did have single player missions that could be played in co-op. I got very frustrated because the missions had objectives... But the player was completely unaware of any list or orders to really do anything. Basically I spent an hour wandering a level with no feedback as to if i was accomplishing anything.

The multiplayer had much better fps than lets say XIII (which i bought the same day. But it just wasn't very fun. It didn't feel like I was in control of my gun... it would always autoaim conveniently NOT where my opponent was.

I don't know how but XIII's multiplayer was so much better than TS2... fps got a lil choppy, but it was fun to actually land headshots, JUMP across broken floors, and ofcourse learn how to finally "cook" grenades for ultimate pwnage.

I hope you continue with your musings Lanethan.
 

Lanethan

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Lanethan's Musings 2
Tuesday, February 27, 2007
3:16AM


Today's Topic: Role-Playing Games!

First of all, in order to discuss a topic as broad as this, we're going to have to come up with a definition we can work from. A definition which, hopefully, we can all agree on.

Just to be clear, let's make sure we're all on the right page about one thing: this topic is about roleplaying video games, not tabletop or other roleplaying games. The reasoning here is simple: Roleplaying Games that are tabletop are fundamentally different than RPG computer/console games. Tabletop games function like interactive stories, in which players act out certain rules and improvise character interaction, and rarely are there "winners and losers" in the traditional sense.

So, this topic will be RPGs in the sense of computer and console RPGs.
What defines this particular genre of video games? I have come up with a short list which I think basically defines an RPG:

1) Statistical Character Attributes. Although not exclusive to the RPG genre (almost every other genre has used this feature from time to time), it is generally considered a "must-have" for a game to be an RPG. For example, most people would consider The Legend of Zelda (NES) to be an action-adventure game, while at the same time consider Zelda 2: The Adventure of Link (NES) to be an action-adventure-RPG, with one of the only key distinction being that in Zelda 2, there are statistical character attributes.

2) NPC Interaction. NPCs, or non-player-characters, while present in other game genres, generally do not attain the status of "NPC," which has a very intangible 'presence' to it. An NPC is not just a monster, or an "enemy," or a "dude with a machine gun"; an NPC is a representation of a character we attempt to believe is a living, breathing inhabitant of the world of the game. Players in RPGs expect to interact with NPCs, not just as enemies, but as people to talk to, get quests or information from, or buy items from. Once again, not exclusive to the RPG genre, but almost always appears.

These two, yes that's right only two, elements seem to bind RPG games together as a genre. Without those two elements present, it is very hard to consider a game an RPG.

Okay, so let's just go ahead and define RPG that way then: An RPG is a game in which players play as a character who has statistical attributes which increase over time, and who can interact with other non-player characters in the game in multiple ways.

A pretty simple formula, when you get it down to it, right?

So, here's where things get interesting: How do you make a "Good" RPG?
What do people dislike about certain RPGs, and really like about others? Here comes a case-by-case study of some of my favorite (and least favorite) RPGs and RPG series of all time, and what I think they did right and wrong.

Final Fantasy Series: Pretty much the archetype for the 'story driven RPG,' a gametype in which characters play through a preset storyline (often in which the characters are already created, and you have very little opportunity to affect them in a major way). I think this series has gotten the formula for that down, culminating in masterpieces like FFVI and FFVII, but it lacks some features which I really enjoy from other RPG archetypes: A freeform environment, departure from "Grinding" for experience, truly customizable/creatable characters.

Elder Scrolls Series: The opposite end of the spectrum from the Final Fantasy series. The "Freeform" archetype, in which character creation and freeform, interactive environments take precedence over a well-crafted and deeply involving central storyline. Though these games do feature a central story of a sort, the central story is rarely the focus. Features that this archetype lacks: Strong and engaging storyline, Less character development from a storyline perspective.

The MMORPG Formula: At their core, all MMORPGS follow the exact same formula. People will bicker and moan over how much better WoW is than EQ2, or vice-versa, but the differences in these types of games is so minimal, they're all almost the same game. Generally MMORPGs strive for the "Freeform" archetype, but they have one significant change: Because the game is focused entirely on being as long of an experience as possible, these games are literally designed to force you to perform menial tasks throughout basically your entire time playing. This is referred to as "Grinding," where you fight (often the same) monsters over, and over, and over simply to achieve that next level. While this is a good tactic for lengthening the time it takes to "experience" the game, it is in my opinion a very cheap and annoying cop-out.

Most RPGs fall somewhere between these categories, and even the series themselves do not completely adhere to the archetypes I mentioned. There are some fairly freeform sections of Final Fantasy games, there are some very compelling story-driven sequences in some Elder Scrolls games, and sometimes MMORPGs really do have content that feels like you are achieving something, rather than grinding something. However, as a basis, these three types are good to analyze.

You'll find gamers that enjoy all of these types of RPG experience, and you'll find gamers that love/hate individual styles passionately. No one style is better than the other, its purely a design choice. That said, here are my thoughts on creating an RPG that is truly fresh in design:

1) Remove "Grind." That artificial, game-lengthening element. RPGs are one of the few game genres that almost always start you out so weak it's comical. Being level 1 doesn't mean that you should not be able to kill the town's stray cats. Also, you shouldn't have to fight a few goblins (who, coincidentally, are weaker than the cats) in order to suddenly become strong enough to kill the strays.

"Wait a minute!" You might say, "You're trying to remove the statistical character attributes feature!" To which I say: "Uhm, sort've."
Statistical character attributes ARE a major point of RPGs, and actually one of the features I enjoy the most. However, I don't believe that these statistics should ever get in the way of the player being able to do something which is within his/her ability as a player to do. If a player is skillful enough to kill a troll with a butter knife, he/she should be able to do so, even if the character attributes say otherwise.

2) Freeform the Story Drive. This probably requires more programming time than is feasible in today's market, but I feel that for the genre to truly be revolutionized, we need to merge the story drive and freeform game style into one. Elder Scrolls is trying to go there, and I salute them for it. Any game which is intelligent enough to weave a story around your freeform actions, I think, would be the crowning achievement of that game's era, and probably stand as a classic for all time.

3) Exploration, exploration, exploration. This is related to the ol' "Location, location, location" saying. In my opinion, RPGs exist to allow us entrance into another world, whether its a fictional fantasy realm or a recreation of 1920s Paris. These games need to feel like they "exist," and a key elemtent of making that work is making players feel the need to explore for themselves the world they have entered. In my opinion, its the most satisfying part of an RPG, but then again I'm wierd that way.


So, this week's challenge: Come up with a feature you think should be included in "The Greatest RPG Ever." Or tell me I'm an idiot and explain why one of my features is complete garbage. Or tell me what you think an RPG's really about.
 

Netrogor

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Ahh... a must to admire a thread that actually uses grammar on the forums here.

To answer your challenge, I will reply with a must-have feature for a great RPG.

A true feature for RPG games, in my opinion, would be the save feature. If there isn't a way to save your progress, to make it so your personalized world remains intact, even when you are asleep or your computer is off, then there is no point to playing the RPG; assuming it has good features.

For this, I feel it can't simply be a save feature alone... it needs to be somewhat advanced; with a "new game plus" feel like you get from some of the Final Fantasy series. If it simply has it save, and then it is all over once you finally beat the game, that leaves little purpose left to playing it.

In that sense, Dark Messiah is a horrible game. No continuation after beating the game, no new unlocked specials, and an absolute linearity that makes control freaks feel like they're in heaven.

For games like the very mod this forums is here for, MasterSword, the current saving mechanism is perfect. It fits the game without flaw, in my opinion; as being able to redo the quest after reloading the game is a great feature. One step up from this would be slightly dynamic quests, where different actions or decisions may be made for the purpose of a different end result in the quest.

Now, this is where Dark Messiah makes us proud, as well as "The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion," in that they allow you to make different choices in moments of urgency that demand an action with which there will be a string of after-effects.

With Dark Messiah, you get to choose between a human or demonic lover, freeing or enslaving your father, and a dozen other little things along the way. In The Elder Scrolls - Oblivion, there are hundreds of such choices you get to make, all of them different; something the series must be praised for time & again, as it makes for infinite entertainment.

On the note of TES: Oblivion, I believe that game is worthy of being noted for how they made the plot infinitely interesting, a main focus, and yet allowed for complete non-linearity and for the ignoring of the main plot.

Another feature that is a must for good roleplaying games, in my opinion of course, is the Guild, or Clan, system. When you are able to assemble into a powerful force with friends, and work together to keep each other alive, enrich each other, and fight in mock-wars, there is always the sense of adrenaline about. Primarily because, in online RPGs, you know that you are in a mock-battle with another person, giving a true sense of who the victor shall be.

Perhaps later I'll post some more concerning your latest challenge, via edit, Lanethan... but for now I'm going to call this good. Perhaps get some sleep, and make sure I don't miss my favorite TV series, "House," tonight 8)
 

ITS'aME'aMARIO!!!!

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Hah, this stuff is very good Lanethan. In fact I think i'm gonna bookmark this thread.

Master Sword 1.3 and Continued before the introduction of Forgotten outpost and The Frozen Summit was quite the "grind" like many other mmos.

kill lots of rats

kill lots of boars

kill lots of skeles

kill lots of orcs

*final fantasy victory jingle*

you're level 20! and almost nothing can beat you!

and between that, there was the repetition of looking for that pfck, tork, ravenmace, dark maul... and spells and such that only spawned by chance... very boring.

I am actually not sure if it has changed since the release of these maps.... But now that it has become more difficult, players really have to work together to win these new maps.

I think another element to an rpg that should be brought up is the interaction with npcs or other player characters. To feel like a team and work together for a common interest. Being alone sucks, and being the only person in the world trying to save it is frustrating. I found examples of this while playing Zelda. I guess Zelda isn't considered an RPG because you don't get stronger over time, but you get stronger as the plot advances. One of my favorite things in the new Zelda Twilight Princess was the fact that I wasn't some fairy boy orphan. But a part of a village, with friends and other people that knew me. And thoughout the game I had allies that would help me overcome obstacles or help lead me in the right direction.

And example of our teamwork in foutpost:

Blasto with his high magic skill would constantly rain blizzards or use chainlightning. I would drop a firewall and volcano to keep the foes from advancing, then switch to my melee weapons. Tull would use his archery for the beginning but switch to melee on the stronger waves.

On one of the last crazy waves in foutpost, a handful of trolls and brawlers would slip through the wall and attack the supervisor. We would all spring melee on the enemies attacking the objective. But when I saw that the supervisor was not in danger I quickly put some firewalls on the front to keep more from entering. Blasto and Tull finished the last of them and we moved back to the front... We however missed a few trolls that slipped by... Probably climbing the center rope. We failed on the last wave, but our teamwor-... We LOST! AHHH!
 

Thothie

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1) Remove "Grind." That artificial, game-lengthening element. RPGs are one of the few game genres that almost always start you out so weak it's comical. Being level 1 doesn't mean that you should not be able to kill the town's stray cats. Also, you shouldn't have to fight a few goblins (who, coincidentally, are weaker than the cats) in order to suddenly become strong enough to kill the strays.

"Wait a minute!" You might say, "You're trying to remove the statistical character attributes feature!" To which I say: "Uhm, sort've."
Statistical character attributes ARE a major point of RPGs, and actually one of the features I enjoy the most. However, I don't believe that these statistics should ever get in the way of the player being able to do something which is within his/her ability as a player to do. If a player is skillful enough to kill a troll with a butter knife, he/she should be able to do so, even if the character attributes say otherwise.
This is a tricky bit to get around in stat-driven game. We have *some* opportunity to do so in MSC, more so than many MMORPGS, since you can actually dodge opponent's attacks, but even with the FPS configuration, the game only allows so much in that regards. (It's also somewhat nerfed, as dodging attacks becomes far too easy, if the monster doesn't have about double its apparent physical reach, plus there's some odd issues with standing on monster's heads, since monster models calculate range from their base, and player's from their centers). I don't think we'll have *much* more opportunity to add this sort of aspect in Source. Even there, I suspect it'll be barely possible to make, for instance, jumpable sweep attacks (ie. if player is X higher than me, this attack misses).

I'm trying to come up with more monsters that are defeated more by skill than shear power, however. We have had some progress in this regards with the Troll lobbers' avoidable boulders, and Shaddarh's (far too easily dodged) Circle of Death, as well as a few fast moving, dodging, repositioning monsters. I'm also trying to figure a way to reduce monster's swing range without allowing you to stand on their heads and be ignored, by increasing their range only when the player is higher or lower.

One would THINK that we would have an advantage over other MMORPG's in that we aren't required to make players waste time, as we aren't paid for the months they stay with the game trying to better their characters. However, there's also that, as Mario says "invincibility" level, where we just don't have any areas left to challenge them, and to prevent that alone, there's gotta be some grind. Gotta make em work for it, or the game's effectively over too soon.

Every MMORPG has that fundamental flaw though. In Evercrack it was, "Geeze, I'm level 60, whadda I do now? Kill Cathuzlz the Elder God for the hundreth time?". It's also self-perpetuating, as all you can do is offer the "invincibles" bigger monsters, with bigger challenges, which of course have to have bigger rewards, which in turn, make the invincibles, ever more invincible. The only possible thing they can do is team against one another.

Makes it tempting to force people to start over with a re-incarnated character when they reach Apostle level, just with some access to unique items/abilities/quests, or somethin. ;)

2) Freeform the Story Drive. This probably requires more programming time than is feasible in today's market, but I feel that for the genre to truly be revolutionized, we need to merge the story drive and freeform game style into one. Elder Scrolls is trying to go there, and I salute them for it. Any game which is intelligent enough to weave a story around your freeform actions, I think, would be the crowning achievement of that game's era, and probably stand as a classic for all time.

IF we had a system where the server could save the state of maps between restarts/crashes, we COULD have this. Areas could be won from, and lost to, the armies of evil. The world landscape could physically change (everything could turn into nightmare_thornlands like areas if things went really bad). There'd have to be some limit, of course, or a periodic reset, but it could be done. It's probably beyond the HL1 coding team's capabilities (although I had some ideas about combining map events with AMX plugins), but it's certainly something to look into and remember in Source.

Adding more opportunities to follow the paths of good and evil is difficult in a game this small though. One really needs a network of inter-connected server-worlds for that with dozens of players on-line at once, so each can have their own territories and goals, yet still be able complete. Plus TBH, it doesn't work too well with your world-concept design. ;)

3) Exploration, exploration, exploration. This is related to the ol' "Location, location, location" saying. In my opinion, RPGs exist to allow us entrance into another world, whether its a fictional fantasy realm or a recreation of 1920s Paris. These games need to feel like they "exist," and a key elemtent of making that work is making players feel the need to explore for themselves the world they have entered. In my opinion, its the most satisfying part of an RPG, but then again I'm wierd that way.
This, at least, we have. Certainly need to expand the world, but well, there's always room for more world. ;)

One opportunity I think we have that none of the other mentioned RPG's had, is that of a community built world. We're not quite a MUDD where anyone can come in and start building dungeon and have massive impact on the world, but damn, it'd be nice if we were. I think we'd have to move to another engine entirely for that level of community expandability, but we're certainly much closer to the MUDD ideal than any of those other worlds.
 

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I suppose MasterSword is also great in that you are able to make map transitions, places that give the feel that you are actually coming from one part of the world to the next; rather than instantly arriving without explanation, or reason, at a new area.

Which brings me to another must have feature for any good roleplaying video game...

Map transitions, when they exist, must be well-done. You can't simply teleport around like in a first-person shooter, like Counter-Strike; there needs to be a feel of the world being connected. MSC has done a good job of this, and Final Fantasy XII (12) has simply kicked ass in this aspect.

For those of you who have played FFXII, you probably noticed how the transition zones give a basic display of the next area; and one of the prized features you also noticed is probably the changing of the seasons (I have over fifty game hours in it right now, and the Giza Plains has gone through two wet & dry seasons so far)...

Back onto what I was ranting on though, is the map transitions. When a player feels that they just arrived at a map, and had to actually travel from one area to the next, it gives that highly desired atmosphere in RPGs; the atmosphere of inter-connection.

As Thothie mentioned, MSC is great in that it can be expanded. It is also great in that there can be unlimited expansion, by using custom maps, and then being able to retain that atmosphere of everything being connected still... while most RPGs take a nose-dive and aren't any good if they added custom areas. World of Warcraft is a prime example here; it has a set world it is built upon, and adding custom areas doesn't fit too well with it, as they do a poor job (in my opinion) on making their, rather large, virtual world feeling connected.

If the poorly built setup of TSRP (The Specialist Roleplay) had a map transition system, it'd probably become a hundred times more popular... as they could inter-connect cities, and people would probably love that type of RP'ing game... but it still lacks the attribute system, and does a poor job of replicating one (with things like Drug Skill); so it is still doubtful that it will ever amount to anything, as it is currently dieing right now.
 

ITS'aME'aMARIO!!!!

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I actually played on a TSRP server that had had another "sister-server" on a different map. In which If I went to a transition-like zone would ask me if I wanted to go to "X" town. When I said yes I would be reconnected to the other server on a different map. That game is fun... The only thing that kills it, is people who claim to RP but really just slaughter, steal, and do things on raw impulse other than interacting with other players in "RP style".

I actually played on this one server in which I was hired as a cop. And being the only one trying to RP effectively became the police chief in less than a week's time. The server owner was an asshole, so one of the players started their own "better" server and I was threatened by both sides to a loss of my "job" if I went to an opposing server. Blah-dee-blah the old, and the new server eventually died due to inactivity and I came back to MSC :D

I agree that a community created world is what sets MS apart from other RPGs and the transitions logical placements give that sense of "travel" from one location to another.

I do however miss the mid battle experience, even though it was exploited with -triggerhurt, I found it to be more interactive. As the more you missed, you got a better chance to hit. And the more you landed hits, your damage for those hits increased. I actually don't know of any other game that had experience gained mid fight in real time.
 

Netrogor

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Oh, do you mean that thing where we could gain experience immediately after doing some damage? That was fun... much better than the current experience system, in my opinion.

Which brings me to my next series of ramblings...

For RPGs that have succeeded in using the attribute system, it should be put into an active use. MS, sadly, no longer has such an active use of it anymore. The reason to have experience come in the process in doing something, and not in the end result, is both logical & necessary for a good RPG, in my opinion.

A classical example of why actively gaining experience mid-process rather than waiting till an end result, is that in the event your computer crashes, or if it is online, then that the server crashes or suddenly changes to another part of the world, is that you will have gained something, at the very least, for your time & effort if you didn't accomplish your end result; which would be, in classical RPG and killing monster terms, the death of your opponent or target.

Since MS succeeded fabulously in the save system, making it so it can auto save your character's data every couple of seconds without bogging down the client's computer, an active experience gaining system makes much more sense; since that way you wouldn't be required to dedicate, oh-say, another hour to killing a boss in a solo fight just for some experience, because of a computer crash.

The issue with "grinding" could also be greatly helped with by having an active experience gain, since then players could actually watch their experience for certain skills rise without having to actually kill their target.

It is sad to say, but MS is the only RPG I can think of right off the top of my head that's ever used such an active experience system...

Try not to take this as some form of plea to turn MSC's experience system back into what it once was, back in MS1.2 or something; I was merely mentioning the benefits there were & how much more enjoyable it was back then when you observed your character's progress in gaining skill...

As to that exploit you mentioned Mario... I don't think I ever noticed that, or abused it, personally.
 

Thothie

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Yer a level 10 fencer. You get jumped by 10 skeletons. You pull out a mace for the first time and gain a level for each one you kill. Say hello to "active experience".

There are far too many ways to exploit XP per/strike, which is why MS was the first and only game to ever use it, as well as the last.

Since you are usually dealing with hordes of monsters, there ain't that much difference anyways. It's not as if you were gaining a level with every punch in the old version.
 

ITS'aME'aMARIO!!!!

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Well if you are a level 10 fencer i'm sure that leveling took a bit of time, and hp gained from becoming that strong should keep you alive long enough to pull off a few swings against the weakest skeletons. Not to try and pull "realism" into a video game like many people request in this game... Buuuuut swinging a sword at a skeleton is not far from swinging a mace. Ofcourse, you won't do as much damage, but you don't all of a sudden become helpless when you pick up another weapon.
 

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Mario, that point doesn't apply to the problem.

This is an interesting discussion: I was always against the "active experience" we had in older MS games, and think that the new system is much more streamlined.
 

Drigien

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Lanethan said:
Mario, that point doesn't apply to the problem.

This is an interesting discussion: I was always against the "active experience" we had in older MS games, and think that the new system is much more streamlined.

whats wrong with an "active experience" so long as there is capped experience i dont see whats so bad.

eg: if im hitting something that is lv30 and im lv1, im only going to get the same experience as hitting a lv3 or somthing... or maybe less exp than something closer to my lv.

Then there would be no point in attacking really strong mobs, and i dont see how 'exploitable' it would be.. maybe cheat maps or something but you could just as well make them now.
 

evilsquirrel

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i dont see whats wrong with it either, cept that cheatmap thing...


and the XP would be based on damage dealt (up to the current HP of the creature), so that in itself is the cap.
 

Netrogor

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So in that sense a new equation could be made, theoretically, to handle those who would try to exploit or cheat...

So, should some other modification, or an entire game, decide they want to use an active experience system... they would have to be sure to make it so that experience is null & useless should you be attacked something much more powerful than yourself... or at least nerfed & very low.

What you are basically thinking Thothie, or so it appears, is that an active experience system would give as much experience per hit as killing it would in the current end-result system. That would only happen if somebody wasn't paying attention during coding or something...

To avoid that though, you could make it so that each hit, based on the percent of the monster's HP, would give you that percent of the experience it offers upon death; in accordance of the current system.

This idea could apply to any game, going from Fable to Oblivion, and on to the littler ones.

In terms of roleplay though, I suppose the end-result experience setup is better... since if you were to get into a knife fight randomly on the streets, you won't become better mid-fight... you'll reflect over it once it is over, and assuming you didn't die, and become better then.
 

Thothie

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Ofcourse, you won't do as much damage, but you don't all of a sudden become helpless when you pick up another weapon.
Of course you won't. You'll still have yer HP and yer Parry. ;) Get jumped by 10 skeletons as a level 1 barbarian, instead of level 10 fencer, and you DIE. :roll:

There's more exploits than this (mind you, in MS 1.35 - it kept giving you XP forever, so any monster that could heal itself was a bottomless -pit of XP), and there's no 100% dependable way to make sure the hit count caps, and the xp still goes to the appropriate players. Even if there was, you'd never bother killing anything - just whack it until it stopped giving you XP, then save yourself the trouble and walk away.

Maybe it's not experience at all, maybe it's some sort of pagan spiritual interchange, and you must kill the beastie to eat it's soul. ;)

This all seriously OT though.

I'm more interested in finding ways around the current flaws in the genre.

I'm also very fond of hybriding genres (such as Natural Selection). I'd like more strategy and action, mixed in with our traditional MMORPG.
 

Netrogor

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I am sad... the beautiful grammar of this thread is over now :(

EDIT:
As well as all that other good stuff; you know what I mean (singling you out MiB, since you usually try to call me about that grammar stuff).
 
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