I'm seriously considering making a spiritual successor.

The Man In Black

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True, but the ability to see all my changes is so huge. Makes sure I don't forget anything writing said tedious RTFs and helps me rollback when I have issues.
 

Thothie

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Well, it has made you an awful lot more prolific. Think ya've almost done more in the past six months than in the six years before that, so ultimately worth it.

It's only like pulling teeth on my end - and the one time its primary job was to save my arse, it failed (still can't figure why that change isn't anywhere in the player_main's or external's history - pushed several minor grammar fixes since, plus Ryza, shoulda at least gone up with those). Meh, it ultimately forced me to complete the task I shouldn't have started, so maybe that was more feature than bug in that sense.
 

WHITE-LION

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I am now in possession of my laptop so I am able to do some work for msc, is there anything I can help with? I will not be able to do testing since I am running Linux mint but I can write code. Next week I might have the opportunity to return home and gather some things so I will be able to do more if that happens. Next time I stay at a truck stop and have access to WiFi I can download JACK and do some mapping.
 

Thothie

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Can't do much MSC++ work if you can't test - tends to involve re-launching the darn thing every 10 seconds (my Steam friend's started yelling at me, so I had to increase my privacy not spam-alert them to the fact I was testing with every launch). You can write scripts, via the test_scripts system, to your heart's content, but those also require a lotta testing.

Next time I stay at a truck stop and have access to WiFi I can download JACK and do some mapping.
^ That, do that. You can even figure out how to write scripts for it, which we can assist you with. Assuming you can't get @thesupersoup to find a job for you.
 

WHITE-LION

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@Thothie
Supersoup is doing his own thing with 'mss', he has moved away from the source engine to unity because he is more familiar with unity. If I resumed work on MSS I would be by myself again, I alone cannot do everything that needs to be done. ugh...no one wants to follow with me so I will follow you instead.
 

Thothie

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Eh, well, Unity does have the advantage that you could test under Linux, in addition to heavy documentation (vs. Goldsrc's none), plus that easy plug-in-play system that makes so many Unity games so awful, but easy to develop (pretty easy to tell who is and isn't using that crutch - the difference between The Forest and 7 Days to Die). It's also easier to team up on, with the SDK's built in enterprise features. Surely soup has something he could use help on.

But, in relation to Cafu... I'd just toss you the source code, if I thought you could actually convert it over. To that end... Here's the ESF - Earth Special Forces source code:
You can download the full game and materials here:
(Given the drastic differences between the two versions, ya might have to substitute/convert some models, but that's part of the job.)

If you can get that to work, maybe ya can convince the MSS team to join you on it, or even the MSC team, if it works well enough. Just - need to figure what to call it, other than MSC... MSCC? ...

But yeah, given your current predicament, if you wanna join the MSC team, mapper and scripter would be the best place to start.
 

WHITE-LION

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@Thothie converting ESF to Cafu and then maybe MSC to Cafu would be twice as much work, rather give me a least a part of the msc source for me to study and emulate in cafu to make a demonstration so that you can judge whether cafu would truly be worth for continuing with it the project. In fact I have already started work on such a demonstration but the data is at home and I will need to make special arrangements to retrieve the data.
 

Thothie

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ESF is much simpler, containing much less and much cleaner custom code. It has the simplest maps around (empty boxes with little buildings in the middle or some terrain), and less than 1/20th of the media to convert. It'd be about 10% of the work, if that. Dun wanna risk more code leaks unnecessarily. Only simpler mod I could think of was maybe Yodamod, but there's no custom vfx there, so not as good a test, given the extensive custom GL extensions MSC has.

Though, in part, I'm trying to express to you just what an epic task converting MSC would be. Again, mapping, scripting, easy access with lots of visible payoff (vs. coding which is a largely under the hood and thankless job, as all our coders could tell you).
 

Thothie

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Patch after next be the plan (as I said, so we can differentiate between our new patch issues and any new issues from the engine). It works, we know that much (and works way better than Gldsrc - which is a development dead end for us now). Haven't done much in the way of multiplayer/DS testing though.
 

WHITE-LION

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@Thothie do you have the complete source code of the new branch or are you using a build of the new branch?
 

Thothie

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Using an older build of Svencoop. That is the one downside, still no engine access.
 

WHITE-LION

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Using an older build of Svencoop. That is the one downside, still no engine access.
So you have no access to the engine code but Sven and his team does which means that any changes you would wish to make to the engine would need to be done with their cooperation. I don't know how they managed to get their hands on GoldSrc but it was very probably done with a non-disclosure agreement between valve software and the SC team considering that goldsrc is still proprietary software, I have said this before. That means we would never be given the source for us to do with it as we please and any time you would want a limit increased or a new feature added or removed would need to be done by request to the owners. If you really want to do this, then the whole future of msc would depend on the cooperation of Sven with our project.
 

WHITE-LION

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I've heard they're very cooperative
But seriously why should they give up time effort and men for us? Even if they did we would be a low priority.

(I am stuck waiting for the next 5 hours so I will be online until 10 PST tonight)
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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I'm not sure why their cooperation would be essential. We never had access to the HL engine source code and that has never stopped us in all these years, so I don't know why it would matter that we don't have access to the sven coop source code.

...it'd be pretty nice to have though.
 

Thothie

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I have said this before. That means we would never be given the source for us to do with it as we please and any time you would want a limit increased or a new feature added or removed would need to be done by request to the owners. I
It's alright, stay calm, worst case scenario, that means we're in the same boat we've been in for nearly 20 years, save with an upgrade.

Meanwhile, that buys us more time to find another engine that's right for us, or spawn a "spiritual successor" in a new one.

For retro-games like MSC, engines don't really affect much in the way of what we can actually do, save when they fail to meet our resource requirements. In other words, as long as the engine doesn't break, we can create anything we wish in it, with time and effort. It may not be as pretty as those newer engines, it might not run as well, but it's right here, ready to keep building the dream, slow and steady.

But if you really play this game for its pretty graphics, prove to yourself and us it can even be done - get ESF working on that engine. We'd love the upgrade, but none of us can do it, so it's up to you.

Thanks to Svencoop, the game will still be here when you've reached the top of that mountain, or see it for what it is.

Either way, if you'd rather just accept the game for what it is, instead of taking on that burden, and are willing to work with the army you have, instead of the one you wish you had, you're still welcome to join us, and just keep building this little world with us. We'd love to have you, while we all wait for our easy to apply dream engine that'll make our ~1K poly models look like the artwork of the gods.


Granted, we may one day simply get control of our current engine, which would be nice too - but if we were under the Svencoop engine when that happened, the engine change would mean so little, that unless we hit some new wall, it wouldn't be worth migrating back, just to have access to it. That really wouldn't allow us to do very much more. Not that we wouldn't do it, eventually, but it wouldn't exactly become a high priority, until we hit another wall.
 

Xeropace

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A properly configured/set up git repo, using Docker for environments, readmes on how to get started are my de facto. But that's on new projects where it's far easier to achieve that using modern tech,

Legacy projects can be interesting with git, mostly because you end up having to commit stuff you wouldn't normally commit (binary files, executable/dlls, secrets, etc)
 

Thothie

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I do realize our repo doesn't have a readme. Due to various betrayals, leading to years of extra work, we tend to be a bit stingy with information when it comes to new developers. Thus, what would be the readme gets copy-pasta'd through the forums, and we pass on new information as needed through subsequent copy-pasta'd PM's.

Granted, the repo is also young - should probably have more reference information. MIB_RTF should probably be in a folder on there, at least - though every new coder gets a full package with that in it. I don't think any of the scripting documentation is in the repo - though I suppose all that exists, save some sensitive stuff, is already in msc/test_scripts.

edit: Alright, fixed some of that and stuck some more documentation up there.
 

thesupersoup

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I was asked to come offer my perspective, I think this is the right thread.
I was onboard with MS:S, but then before the next batch of effort even had time to reach room temperature, it had been abandoned in favor of another MMO project. Which left me alone in a room with a pot full of lukewarm water.

My perspective was that I have experience with Unity and most of its facets, but nothing worth noting RE: Source and any code under the hood. So if it's left to me to make dinner, I'm going to work with the ingredients I know.

I did not outright commit to assuming leadership of MS:S, nor did I take it from anyone. I simply stated that, in and amidst my other Unity projects, if I could spin off something that could fill the shoes of a new Master-Sword game, I would. But that's a sizeable "if."

Much of my recent work has been focused on building a flexible, genre-agnostic framework which offers many of the elemental building blocks of game development. I would be lying if I said that all of the MS:S models (textures ported over to materials, etc.) weren't currently floating in a Unity project, but I would also be lying if I said any of the level geometry made it over despite efforts. And a handful of mice, swords, bows, and daggers does not an adventure make without places to roam.

So thus is why I've been careful and deliberate about calling it MS:New instead of MS:S. Also why I've had nothing to report of yet. If anyone has any suggestions for importing .bsp or .map data to Unity, I'm all ears.
 

Thothie

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I'm all for supporting MS:U - maybe I can provide scholarships, but alas, I've never found a way to convert those to something Unity will eat. Think there was an effort, somewhere in this very thread, but it dun failed.

I'm assuming @WHITE-LION is just confused, and thinks you took over MS:S from him. Not that I actually have much say, but a Source MasterSword project and Unity MasterSword project, are indeed two different projects, and probably involve two different teams. The folks who have worked on MS:S in the past, have experience with Source, and may have none with Unity, so I dun think you could just claim them out of hand. One would need to ask them to come over to the new project. This isn't like converting an existing game to a new engine, you are literally making a new game, on a new engine.

While I approve of an MS:U project, before I'd give it forum space and web space, it'd have to get off the ground as least as much MS:S did (ie. ya can walk through some maps or some similar sign of potential). There's been a dozen or MS spin-off projects, on various engines, that never got that far, so to require less would be a waste of such resources, especially if yer the only one on your team, and thus have no use for them. Once that was accomplished, I'd still give it separate space from MS:S, as someone else may still wish to pick up those lovely maps. models, and inventory system, as well as the neglected Source torch.

But, as you have access, feel free to use the MS:S forums to ask around and see who will join your MS:U project. Normally, it's considered bad form to attempt to poach developers from another project, but that mod is apparently completely frozen with no lead - clearly they aren't very busy with it.
 

Thothie

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PS. I would also not be personally offended if you wanted to try to recruit Xerospace for your MS:U project, despite his being recently recruited to MS:C, as he is the creator of one of the three MS:U projects, and his probably got further along than anyone else's. Maybe he'll be able to find the time to work on both someday- though, at the moment, I think he's yet to even find time for us (or he's just been bedazzled by the eldritch horror that is our code base, and has yet to regain his composure).
 

thesupersoup

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I appreciate the support. Part of the reason I hadn't said anything one way or the other, for any project, was because I didn't believe I had anything to report. Work continues on my foundational stuff, and I figured once my main project was in a better place I could throw a little time at seeing if I couldn't rig up MS:U. I didn't intend to start recruiting until I had something to recruit for, but maybe the development pools overlap less than I think; as you point out, they're quite different projects.

I'll go post on MS:S then about MS:U. Gosh, that felt dirty to type out.
 

thesupersoup

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Scratch what I said—upon review of chat logs, I guess I did say something akin to "I'll assume control of Master-Sword: Source" upon it's abandonment, but then I quickly danced over to Unity and never looked back. So here is my formal relinquishment of Master-Sword: Source, the Source Edition, for any who would don that mantle.
 

WHITE-LION

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I feel like I must explain myself. Originally I had started MSS again in the hope to finish it and cause a resurgence in MasterSword and the MS community, bringing in new players and securing the future of this dear project. Yet I was getting ahead of myself, not knowing anything about programming with the Source engine nor even knowledge of C++ at the time. When SuperSoup had joined me I was glad, but we were only programmers and we both knew that to complete MSS would require expertise in multiple different disciplines which we did not have. If MSS would ever be finished it would be with a team of talented artists, but that was the real challenge. I had sought help elsewhere yet I found many to have a distaste for the source engine (because it is old) so it seemed to be very unlikely for us to find others to join us and realize MSS, especially with the fact that the halcyon days of Source modding have gone away and all those talented Source artists have moved on to other things. So the future of MSS really did seem to be doomed and more and more like a dream. All the while I was attending a local college for to study computer networking and had met some classmates who shared the same interests as I do, namely computer games and indie games. We teamed up to make our own indie game and I had given MSS to supersoup. As time went on the more I saw that nothing among us would ever be realized, one was more interested in playing games while the other was too busy with school. Nothing happened. I really do feel like an ass about all this, I still very much want to save MS from a future of becoming only an historical artifact, yet nothing seems to work out .... I am sorry.
 
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