For Servers who want Clients: Maps w/Spawns & Helena Fix

[Thothie]

Just to clarify:
This is for MS v1.35 - NOT for MS:C!

Hi, tis Thothie again... Ye may remember me from ye old days of WonID Master Sword and ye forums of old (aka. Saint Thoth)



In any case, one of the things that seemed to kill client flow for this game like nothing else, and prevent it from blooming into anything popular, was the fact that you could only join a server on Edana, and the only way to join a server that was anywhere else, was to create your own server, and run all the way to where those players were, pray they were still there when you were done, and then join their server . There's no in-game documentation to describe this pain-in-the-ass process, and the readme file is rather weak in its description. So, I've done for you what the old developer's really should have done, namely, added spawn points to all the maps.



With these maps on your server, clients will be able to join your server, no matter what map you are running, or what map their characters may be stuck on. The clients will not need to download your version of the map, as only the entity table has been modified:



http://www.thothie.com/ms/challs.bsp

http://www.thothie.com/ms/calruin.bsp

http://www.thothie.com/ms/mscave.bsp

http://www.thothie.com/ms/sfor.bsp

http://www.thothie.com/ms/thornlands.bsp

(These maps are for Steam - Master Sword 1.35 - NOT MS:C)



I have discovered these maps improve client flow tremendously. These maps are also useful for curing some character bugs.



I'm including Helena separately, as I've also made some more extreme changes to this particular map:

http://www.thothie.com/ms/helena.bsp



The problem with Helena, is that 90% of the time (if not more) the map will crash before it ends. The primary reason for this, is too many arrows causing an entity flood. I suspect when Lord M originally made the map, Orc Arrows had a shorter entity life. You can pick up the arrows, and this helps sometimes, but even then, it’s a rare circumstance when you can complete the map.



Now, I didn't want to simply remove the Orc Archers/Rangers. While that would be the most obvious solution, I felt that it made the map too easy. So, to compensate, I took the Troll (rare) spawn, and changed its frequency and chance of spawning.



The result is, when you first enter Helena, you'll see between three and four trolls, in addition the horde of orcs, beating the townsfolk into bloody pulps. A new troll will spawn every few minutes (to a maximum for four trolls up at one time). After 20 or so trolls die, their spawn frequency will go down to a trickle - by then, assuming you haven't gotten tired of dieing and the townsfolk haven't all been killed, the map should be complete.



Testing it, it took four characters with 250+hp each and titled weapons and magic armor to successfully save the townsfolk. Each of the characters died at least twenty times. So I feel that's a reasonable amount of difficulty to reward ratio. It's certainly much more difficult than the original, and 90% less likely to crash.



The map still does crash on occasion (but don't they all?), and you can still get the bug where the orcs stop spawning. The best advice I have to avoid that bug is to stay away from their spawn. Stay behind the central rock, or behind the battlements, and let them come in. It also still has a habit of crashing if you dump everything out from inside the victory chest.



Preemptive strike on the 'Cheat Map' debate: Alright you Nazi's - I should point out that it's you people, more than anyone else, more than even the Cheaters and Hackers, who have hampered the game's popularity. The lack of spawn points on maps, especially when combined with the map change crash bug, has alienated more new players than anything. It also discourages regulars and friends, as it makes it very difficult for them to play together. Yes you are supposed to 'explore' and find your way to new areas, but how long does it really take before you've seen and know your way to every map in 1.35? If there was a token preventing your character from starting on maps he'd never traveled to, I'd be fine with that compromise, but there isn't - and ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away, so thus I supply this fix. As for Helena - let's face it, the map was bugged to the point of unplayability. This solution not only makes the map work, but it makes it even more difficult than the original. Sure, those archer whore players can sit up on buildings and shoot at things forever - but archers can do that anywhere - and if you've ever looked at an archer's hitpoints - you can see it doesn't do them much good. And yes, Trolls have more gold than Orc Rangers, but they also make you work a lot harder for it. Besides, the only characters that would have any real use for that amount money wouldn't last very long on this map.



If it wasn't for these Nazi's - we'd have more maps for this game. Maybe a whole set. Really, if people had been allowed to develope maps, and have them certified by the developers, rather than the hard lined rule that 'all new maps are cheat maps (even one's simply modified to work) the game would have been popular enough that it wouldn't have taken this long to get it transferred to Steam.



Yes, I realize there were, in the days of WON, some maps that were obviously designed to be nothing but cheat maps. Still, the point is, it wasn't, and isn't, worth destroying the future of the game trying to prevent it.



I realize most of these morons are gone, as are most of the developers, and I hope the team working on Master Sword: Continued take a new direction in their hearts and don't repeat the mistakes of Nazi's past that kept this game so far below the HLMod radar.



I'm willing to donate, time, artwork, writing, and file hosting to the new project providing an effort is made to make the following true of MS:C -



- Map crash bug fixed

- Character delete bug fixed

- Need to drop pack to see new equipment bug fixed

- Networked computers duplicate character bug fixed

- Spawn points on all maps

- Inventory allows for two of each weapon type, easily

- A system for new maps is put in place

- ms_pklevel works without map transition (ie. real time)

- Better, in game, documentaion



Really, I'll probably settle for 4 out of 9 - I'm willing to do what I can to increase this game's popularity. These map replacements for 1.35 are part of that sincere effort. Thank you.

__________

"I would fckn kill for FCK right about now." - Too much Master Sword

Saint Thoth

 

[Kuroneko]

Ah, yes, blame the 'Nazis'. Because it's our fault that we don't want everyone to have the best items in the game right away. People do develop custom maps, you know. They've made well over 60 (according to JM). Guess what? Only 10, a best, have any kind of value in play. The other are little more than monsters in cages in a sub-par enviorment, with chests every 4.5 feet. I think we have a damn good reason to not like custom maps. And most of the 'cheat map developing morons' are still around, why would they quit now?



And yes, we are taking a new direction, we've already added much harsher cheat map detection and new ways to combat them. Just so you know, if you were to make those changes in the next version, you'd find it very difficult to play at all.



Your bug list:

fixed, pending stress tests

fixed, pending stress tests

fixed, pending stress tests

what?

no

what?

oh, there is

so people can turn it on, kill you, then turn it off? fun.

working on it



And before you start angrily writing back to me, I'll have you know that the changes you've made to the maps are good. And, more or less, I approve of them. I don't know how many times I've played Helena, but I can tell you I've only gotten to the end three times. However, as I said before, such changes will not be tolerated in the newer versions.

 

[Thothie]

It's sad how you're willing to continue the tradition of destroying this game and any future it may have to thwart handful of cheaters, who wouldn't even be able to harm anyone if ms_pklevel worked, but well, you're in charge...



Now as I count to ten and let my anger subside, let me focus on the positive and parse your reply:

- Map crash bug fixed

fixed, pending stress tests

Yay!

- Character delete bug fixed

fixed, pending stress tests

Yay x2!

- Need to drop pack to see new equipment bug fixed

fixed, pending stress tests

Yay x3!

- Networked computers duplicate character bug fixed

what?

Can't believe you haven't noticed this...

Try connecting to the same MS server with two computers on another network. ie. Like every set of siblings has (two computers connected to the net via router, connecting to an MS server on the internet). What happens, is when their characters save, every now and again, for some damned reason, their characters swap. Brother winds up with sister's character, and visa versa. Usually the same character duplicates on both computers, so this is effectively character deletion for at least one of them. I don't dare even think what would happen if a café of computers connected to a single MS server.

- Spawn points on all maps

no

Refresh my memory as to the logic behind this argument. Let me remind you that lacking spawn points cuts your client flow down to less than 10% (and that's just by comparing traffic in the past 3 days). If you want this game to flourish, you're going to have to make it easy for people to play. But, if you're just writing it for your own personal entertainment, I'll stfu.



Again, I'd settle for the ability to spawn on any map I've traveled to at least once, combined with the message, "You cannot spawn on this map, as your character has never visited this location."



A lot of people can't start their own servers. You're basically telling them, "If you leave Edana, you can never play again until you find a server that's running whatever map you went to, or Edana."



If you fix the map crash bug, servers on Edana are going to become much harder to find, lest the game resets to Edana automatically, when the server empties.

- Inventory allows for two of each weapon type, easily

what?

Maybe just for characters with Strength of 20+... Once you get to the higher levels, you usually want to train in a wide range of weapons. The problem is, once you get to the higher levels, using your Title Weapons, just about everything dies in a single blow. This makes it very not-fun for the lower level characters to have you around... So, you can either ditch all your hard earned title weapons - and then be powerless to help when the higher level characters group together - resort to training in nothing but MA - or you can carry two of each weapon type (a title weapon, and a small weapon). Current inventory system makes this last and most favorable option neigh impossible. I'm not sure if the basic difficulties that lead to the need for this will still exist in MS:C though.



Of course, another, painfully obvious solution would be: A BANK.

- A system for new maps is put in place

oh, there is

Any details? One thought I had was an auth system based on an algorithm generated from the map name that all the devs and authorized playtesters could have the program for (eg. MS would look for a file with the contents based on the developer's approval code to be distributed with each map). Not unbreakable, but would maybe make you Nazi's/power mongers feel better.

- ms_pklevel works without map transition (ie. real time)

so people can turn it on, kill you, then turn it off? fun.

Feh, I thought of that after I wrote it... Suffice to say, rather, make ms_pklevel engage when the server starts. Ms_pklevel doesn't work right as it is now - when the server first starts, PK is enabled. The ms_pklevel 0 setting doesn't kick in until you have a successful map transition. I'm tired of having to ban people for killing n00bs and steeling their stuff, when I've got ms_pklevel set to 0 in the server.cfg.



Then again, there is this factor to consider: if an admin abuses clients in such a way, the clients won't play on the server (amx_god has the same effect you describe, and yet plenty of server's have it). So maybe just a simple real-time solution, ala mp_friendlyfire, wouldn't be so bad. As it is now, though, it's just broken.



Of course, one could simply make ms_pklevel 0 the default. Surely, having to zone maps to kill each other is considerably less annoying than having to zone maps to avoid being killed.

- Better, in game, documentation

working on it

Tell me if you need anything for that. It maybe useful to get a unique fixed GUI font system, sort of like Brain Bread or (better) Natural Selection have, in order to guide and encourage new players.



Assuming you want them. :roll:

__________

"Pompous attitude provided free of charge."

Saint Thoth

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

*Sits down with a bag of popcorn*

 

[Kuroneko]

Can't believe you haven't noticed this...

Try connecting to the same MS server with two computers on another network. ie. Like every set of siblings has (two computers connected to the net via router, connecting to an MS server on the internet). What happens, is when their characters save, every now and again, for some damned reason, their characters swap. Brother winds up with sister's character, and visa versa. Usually the same character duplicates on both computers, so this is effectively character deletion for at least one of them. I don't dare even think what would happen if a café of computers connected to a single MS server.

Oh that. It's fixed.

lest the game resets to Edana automatically, when the server empties.

Always has

A BANK

We have one of those.

when the server first starts, PK is enabled

Thats acctually a bug with edana and a few other maps, go fix it, why don't you?

*Sits down with a bag of popcorn*

/me sits down with JM and snacks

 

[Tradion]

/me joins in with the popcorn eating.....





Soh, Nazi's.. Wow, You mean all the old MS dev's right? Not the MS:C devs then? Cuz i really dont like being called a nazi. Not in a serious way anyways.. Mabye as a joke.. like "Hey Longdale you nazi, get your ass back online" but not "Longdale, your seriously a nazi, because you fucked my sister" See waht i mean?..



/me puts some cheese on the popcorn.. that powder popcorn cheese.... and eats some more..

 

[Kuroneko]

/me gets some cherry pepsi to help wash it down

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

*Grabs a coke and mumbles something about the word 'nazi' being raped in every possible way*

 

[Tradion]

/me shrugs a bit... snatches a taco johns cup and fills it with about everything from the machine.. and drinks...



I'm waiting...

 

[Thothie]

/me snags some popcorn while assplundering the word 'Nazi' some more...



Actually, it wasn't all the old devs, indeed, I think it was just one or two particularly vocal ones, as I recall chatting with at least two devs on my old WonID server that were rather perturbed about the situation. Some wanted to see the game's popularity increase. That's my only concern.

when the server first starts, PK is enabled

Thats acctually a bug with edana and a few other maps, go fix it, why don't you?

Hmmm... Well, I've seen it happen on Helena, Edana, Sfor, Calruin, Challs, MScave, and Thornlands... so that leaves... Oh wait: squat. It can't be a map bug. I've had friendly fire on every map. :/ Happens pretty much every time the server uses changelevel or restarts, had the same problem in WON.



What *might* be a map bug, is those rare instances where I've had players who could attack other players - or certain other players - but couldn't be attacked themselves. Very "fun" as you put it. I've only seen that on Edana - but have no clue how to ripent and fix it.



BTW, most PK'ers quit the sever after killing someone and taking their stuff - which usually means I have to dig through logs to find their ID and ban them.



Two days ago I actually had someone named Lyonus, who must have had their skills in the 50's, come into Thornlands, where four new players were attacking the Queen spider. He killed all four of them with one hit each, typed "LOL" and then bailed the server when he saw me chasing him. (I guess I looked imposing in my DA - but given how quickly he killed them, I'm sure he woulda kicked my ass).



OT: What would be nice, is either an Arena map (where the FF was always on, and you could pay some NPC to teleport you there should all players accept, or some such) - or a 'Challenge to Duel' option, say as an option under the "offer" command next to gold (which might be more difficult to employ). I'm sure the PVK's guys wouldn't mind you borrowing their PVK_Colosseum map for that purpose (I can get the source for you). Granted, this has all been discussed before.

lest the game resets to Edana automatically, when the server empties.

Always has

My server doesn't, and never has. :\



And, Yay x4 on the bank! I hope it's not just in Edana though. If it's the magical Vault of Udamal, or what not, you could plant high-preist NPC's every here and there to allow access to player's banks outside of Edana ('specially in Thornlands, where all the maps crossroad). Maybe with increased fees in regards to their distance from the temple.

__________

"The Nazis have their uses. They'll get rid of the Communists for us, and then we'll be able to control the Nazis." - Barron Bradbury 1938

Saint Thoth

 

[Tradion]

Ahh.. right.. Well you'll think i'm a nazi when i tell you this.



The map thing was for Role PLay value, and the thing is, oh yah, the game was made for Role playing as its a rpg (Role Playing Game... haha..) and therefore, if people can't suck it up and start in edana or thornlands, than they can suck off for all i care. This isn't a just a diablo like hack and slash. We actually try to get some ROle PLaying here...

 

[Thothie]

Nah, I remember you...



Hmmm... Well, I am concerned about the Play end of the Role Play (although, I don't quite see how this game has any more dramatic powers than Diablo). Still, ya have a point there - but you also need players to role play with... You also don't want a lot of people to effectively lose their characters when they leave Edana.



One compromise that may help would be give one of those high priest's the ability to teleport people to each map for a small fee, as you see in Everquest and the like.



The game does not switch back to Edana when empty though, so people would still have to find a server running Edana to restore their characters, until that bug is fixed, which maybe frustrating enough to make them give up. I talked to Kuron about this - mp_timelimit does not work.



Ah, wait, there's an ms_timelimit - and it works - but its set to 0 by default - changeing that would help.



Still, walking from map to map is hardly an element of role playing. What about those dramatic moments when reinforcements show up? And the other compromise - just make it so people can't spawn fresh on maps their characters have never walked to, would have some "RP" aspect, but again, you need a message to make the problem clear, or people will give up on the game straight off.



I just came into a major bug with the current distrabution involving the folder name that should be fixed now... I'm going to dedicate my server to spreading the word about that bug so we get all the clients running on the same set of servers (there are about 20 people playing off and on under the wrong folder name because of this, including your's truly - who can't even see Hellskitchen and the other servers). There's also at least one other server running regularly under that distro. The last distro made the install folder "msyar" - so tis all screwd up.



Now, I just need to figure how to add an MOTD to Edana to explain the screwd up distro... I'll keep the server this way for a week to inform all the people with the bad distro on how to fix it.

__________

"The problem isn't stupid people, the problem is that lightning bolts aren't distributed properly."

Saint Thoth

 

[Ewok]

I love the way people talk and cry in distress before they even know what's in MS:C. So many things get mentioned are in the game.



Personally, starting in Edana I think is a good thing, it has no monsters (well deadly) and allows players to gather together, stock up, and get ready for adventuring.



And having a starting spawn in every map would be just as absurd, in Edana, you sort of magically appear in the temple's start room which fits in with the setting. But being able to just "appear" in any map without any excuse is just stupid. You'll be the amazing teleporting player, who doesn't have to work his way through everything just because he did it sometime in his past life with a whole bunch of friends. Otherwise he can't do it. Killing the feeling of character progression. Seeing the flaws?



But I can see your point about not being able to join servers, but I personally think, just run there, get to the place, then join. It feels more real that way having to travel somewhere far in order to meet your companions who need your aid.



There's always pro's and con's.



- Ewok

 

[dRkILL]

I think a way to make a compromise with that spawning issue would be to have only a few new character spawns at set locations in the world (like perhaps in Deralia, Gate City, and some other cities planned for later development). It doesn't have to be every town/city, but perhaps some of the major ones.

 

[Thothie]

I like the way DrKill thinks.



Still, a lot of people, for whatever reason, can't start their own servers. (I'm constantly being hounded by them to change to Edana when we're trying to kill Calruin, and such). Those people will have to wait until a server opens up on Edana, as it is now, and will likely give up on the game real early on. Also, as it is now, there's no good in-game message telling them why they can't spawn (I've a cycling bind to explain this, as I must do so often).



As for realism, I don't see a player appearing in a new land any more unrealistic than his inability to travel to a new one without all the players lining up at the passage to it (or hopping on arrows to climb walls, in armor no less). And again, teleporting high-priests or some such would be a help. You see those in most every RPG - and for damned good reasons.



Again, more clients, ease of use, and greater popularity > the 'realism' of having to huff it (if you can).

__________

“How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don’t think.” - Adolf Hitler

Saint Thoth

 

[Tradion]

Yah, the thing is, hmm.. how to put this.. I dont see why people cant create a server... I had the problem in the past and found out that i just had to let it keep running and it would eventually work. Then i made a new PC that runs the game like it wasn't even happening.



Just tell them that, then they'll stop their bitchin.. ALso, a good map to end on is the Thornlands, because most people will end up there after they finish a quest, and to me, none of the quests take long at all..

 

[Ewok]

I revert back to my, "I love the way people talk and cry in distress before they even know what's in MS:C. So many things get mentioned are in the game."



Drkill has it on the mark there, which is pretty much exactly what I have thought of and in part what you have said Thoth. I've considered this long before this topic or issue got raised here. It's good to have suggestions, but sometimes you must trust that the devs (who are fans of the game) consider options such as these and try find the best solution.



- Ewok

 

[Chopsuey]

umm, can anyone explain to me this this,,,, in 200 words or less? i odnt have time to read all your posts

 

[Fluffy0388]

They are tryin to fix bugs and thoth is flippin out, tho he has many good points, needs to chill out and just wait for the damn remake to come out lol! no offense but the idea of spawning everywhere u want is ok (if uve been there) in SOME ways, but i can immediatly think of a way i can use this to quickly become powerfull... Say someone (a high level char online) decides to rush you to a really hard place than u manage to kill a moster there... (not hard in my point of view) well just in my eyes ive done that in past games (eq) and i didnt stick with it for long i got bored because i leveled really fast and was really powerfull... yay i kill everything in one hit... what fun is that man? lol oh well just felt like i needed to say that... im not smart i dont think i am but i do know how i like my games and the ms:c team is doin fine in my view... i wouldnt like the game if it was JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER F***ING RPG I EVER PLAYED... but all i gotta say is PLZ MS:C TEAM! QUICKLY COME OUT WITH SOMETHIGN TO FIX THE DAMN CHAR DELETE BUG! omg ive lost so many high lvl chars to this lol... i believe ive brought this up before but still... oh well thx guys and srry for rambling

 

[Kuroneko]

246, you fail.

 

[Fluffy0388]

what are u talkin bout? 246 fail? lol w/e well all i know is that like i said if it was like everyother mod (the way thoth seems to want it) i wouldnt want to play it therefore keep up the good work ms:c team

 

[Kuroneko]

umm, can anyone explain to me this this,,,, in 200 words or less? i odnt have time to read all your posts

you had 246 words.

 

[Fluffy0388]

oh well only about 46 of those were actually meant to be read by him lol maybe just the first 2 sentences i forget... but the rest was for that thoth guy who is flippin out about the way u guys are makin it... my view is he needs to keep quiet unless hes got something NEW to say lol... no offense but u repeated urself quite a bit there thoth lol

 

[Thothie]

"I love the way people talk and cry in distress before they even know what's in MS:C. So many things get mentioned are in the game."

Since you missed the point enough to make that statement twice, note I said that I would be willing to throw my support behind a game that endeavored solve the issues I listed. I don't have access to a detailed changelog, so all I can do is ask. It's more concern for the game's success than distress though - but I know better than to just sit back and 'have faith' in anyone. There's no greater crime you can commit against another person or cause.



And yes, Tradition, I'll tell them to get a new computer - they'll just love that. I'm sorry, but if people have to buy a new computer to make your mod work - there's more wrong with the mod than the computer. Such a viewpoint is certainly not going to encourage the growth of this game. I had five separate regulars with this problem in the four days my server was up (now it's just there to warn of the distro error), each described it a little differently. Even for those who can, it's still a royal pain in the ass to join up with friends, and thus tends to make people not stick with the game.



A high level character will help you get to a high level dungeon, just as easily as he would help you if you spawned there to begin with, and be more likely to aid you, so I don't see that as an issue. MS:C sounds to be a much bigger world, so the real issue I see with spawn points is the lack of need to explore (which was never a real issue with ye old MS). Again, character traveled location tokens, or a charge for teleportation, or even a combination there of ('I can teleport you to a place you've been, for a fee'), would easily fix that.



I'm looking forward to MS:C, surely, but as I said, I don't want to see it suffer from some of the major shortcomings of its forbearer. It's not a lack of word of mouth - the game is well known - but it's also infamous in its lack of functionality, ease of use, and expandability. As a result, I'm riding you guys for the good of the game. Get mad, or get even, the choice is yours.

__________

"393, so failed."

Saint Thoth



In 200 words or less: Lack of begin points on maps, or any compromise solution, is killing the game's client flow and threatens to continue to do so in the next version, unless action is taken.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

And yes, Tradition, I'll tell them to get a new computer - they'll just love that. I'm sorry, but if people have to buy a new computer to make your mod work - there's more wrong with the mod than the computer. Such a viewpoint is certainly not going to encourage the growth of this game. I had five separate regulars with this problem in the four days my server was up (now it's just there to warn of the distro error), each described it a little differently. Even for those who can, it's still a royal pain in the ass to join up with friends, and thus tends to make people not stick with the game.

http://msremake.fragism.com/gl-bin/foru ... .php?t=622



You guys should write a novella on this. I have an adequate name:

Bull Shit: Continued



*Sits down with even more popcorn, enjoying the show*