Father Brandon's secret captain's log.

Father Brandon

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What I am changing to my keledros prelude map :)

-small pit before stone boar is gone, doorway is bigger and no more door at all. boar can come all the way out onto the ledge which is monstercliped.

-spider room has bigger ledges bigger doorway with no door, and the stone spider is moved to a new room beyond it, when he dies it triggered some web to break (how original!) and you can travel through a new section of basement to a underground piece of ruin which contains a some ropes up into a small cave with a chest.

-completely re-textured the outdoors and some inside, added clips and brushes to make "walking up to the skymap" not possible in all areas besides the main transistion from helena.

-re-did the monster counter, slightly less bandits and fang tooths.

-reworked alot of of the land (brushes).

-more ambient sounds!!

-all moving doors removed and bigger entrance ways added.

(what I am working on)

More detail outdoors and more clip brushing.

Then I will move onto finishing up some more of Keledros Keep with that zany wizzard.

Added Jan.05, 2006:

-ledges of the abyss near the boar enlarged
 

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Keledros Prelude added today

-killing stone spider and boar now give you goodies.

-bandits now have their own cave hidout.

-stone boss battle areas are bigger and easyier to get too.
 

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Updates!

Updates to the starting area
keledrosprelude.JPG



Updates to the big field (don't mind the black tree, it is being taken out)
keledrosprelude20002.JPG
 

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Thank you : )

changes made today

-bandit cave complete, must destroy bandits to gain access to the chest.
-stone boar now has a *much* larger ledge to proceed out onto from his fire room.
 

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Bandits cave:

banditcavern.JPG



-stone spider now hard to cheat against (working on making it impossible) -treasure chest reward

-bandits in bandit cave impossible to cheat against -treasure chest reward

-stone boar is now hard to cheat against (working on making it impossible) -treasure chest reward

-enemies can get out of water near waterfall with ease
 

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Prepare yourself for....

djinn.JPG


That poison is just a temp effect until I script some cold damage, well, at least damage that looks like coldness ,P.
 

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:oldshock: Fricken awesome!

By the by, it's official, we need elementals for monsters ingame. They fit under the 'constructs' line of monsters (i.e. the animated armors), but of course would be 'elemental' in nature.
Fire Elemental, Ice Elemental, Lightning Elemental, Earth Elemental are of course the 'standards.' MS could go the extra mile by having Smoke Elemental, Wind Elemental, Poison Elemental, and Crystalline Elementals as well though... but I digress. I'll probably end up echoing this idea in that post 1.01 dev thread.
 

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Changes made today.

-now impossible to cheaply fight the stone spider.
 

Father Brandon

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Heya guys!

It's been almost 12 years since I have checked in on this mod and I'm super excited to find out that it's still alive and kicking. One hell of a community that's for sure. I played for a few hours today with a MSC veteran and had a blast.

I returned to level design last year (mainly for Team Fortress 2. If you're curious, you can check out my Steam Workshop here) and have mostly kept up practicing since. I would be more than happy to work on a new map for the world of MSC with your feedback and testing help.

If you'd like to see a new map added from me:

- What area of the world would you like to see?
- Could it be a transition zone to make travelling between some existing maps more smooth? If so, between which locations?
- Would you like a more linear, scripted sequence driven map (sort of like the prison break tutorial map) or a completely open map such as the Thornlands?

If you'd like me to create a map, I plan on documenting it from the time it is drawn on paper to alpha to final versions. So hopefully some entertainment and further ideas come from it as well.

Feel free to add me on Steam!

PS:
It felt appropriate to post this in my old dev journal. If it needs to be moved, let me know where would be best to post.

I would also love to touch up the Keledros Prelude map as it kind of looks like melted moldy cheese on the outside but I no longer have the hammer file for it. Does anyone have any hammer files for it?

Thanks all!
 
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Monika's_BFFEx0256

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Open world!

Could be the Elven Forest (I forget the name? Something Sylen?)

Would be cool to have another very high level town like Sorc Villa
 
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TheOysterHippopotami

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wow! It's the legendary Father Brandon!

- What area of the world would you like to see?
Eswen Sylen would be awesome! Or the Thunder plains.. although honestly I have always wanted to see Dayla Haven ;)

http://www.moddb.com/mods/master-sword/images/new-map1

- Could it be a transition zone to make travelling between some existing maps more smooth? If so, between which locations?
YES! We need more of this kind of stuff in my opinion. Wasn't Dayla Haven supposed to be a monestary near bloodrose or something? A map that featured said monestary and also included some kind of gradual transition from a bloodrose aestehtic to the elven forests would be cool as ice cubes.

(assuming I have my lore right on that, which I may not..)

- Would you like a more linear, scripted sequence driven map (sort of like the prison break tutorial map) or a completely open map such as the Thornlands?
Definitely completely open, like Thornlands. We don't have enough maps like that. Plus Thothie has made a few new tools in the new alpha which can help make free roam maps more resource friendly.
 
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The legenday Father Brandon himself! Wow! Welcome back!

Keledros Prelude is still one of my all-time favorite maps. Right up there with other brilliant maps like the Thornlands, the Plains of Daragoth and the Aluhandra Desert. What these maps have in common is that they are free-roam maps; MasterSword: Continued is in dire need of those.

At the moment, MS:C really has no shortage of ugly-looking linear maps, unfortunately. I won't name any examples but I'm sure you can find them if you look in-game. For years now, (amateur) mappers have constantly tried to outdo each other by making "TEH HARDEST BADEST DUNGON MAPE!!!1!" and this has resulted in a whole slew of bland, linear, boring, ugly, unbalanced, repetitive, undetailed maps with bizarre layouts, 'rainbow selections' of monsters (no consistency whatsoever) and complete lack of atmosphere or even basic interactivity. And most of these maps don't even tie in to the lore.

You describe Keledros Prelude as "melted moldy cheese". Believe it or not, even though it's over eleven years old, it's still better than most of the more recent MS:C maps, most notably in terms of gameplay, layout and visuals.

Your Team Fortress 2 work looks stunning. Just stunning. I have no doubt someone with your skill could actually deliver. That's why I agree with Lucifer Majiskus and The Oyster Hippopotamus: You should totally do the hardest thing there is to do: Make a free-roam map.

In Lanethan's lore thread you'll find a nifty selection of maps I'm sure lots of people are willing to see. Lucifer already suggested Eswen Sylen, which is a good suggestion, but I'd prefer to see the Thunder Plains, Cacaron or Eswen Hathelon.

Some general suggestions:
  • Make sure your map sticks to a theme. If you're going to make an ice map, populate it with ice monsters almost exclusively. Consistency is very important. Don't 'rainbow' your monster layout as it is one of the easiest ways to ruin a map completely. A great example of how it should be done: Shadahar Palace.
  • Don't use the monster tiers ramping system; it has serious flaws. Instead, use one of the many mapper toys Thothie has designed over the years. Apart from the obvious HP and damage multipliers, you can also set monster resistances to elements, movement speed, various degrees of armor rating and much more. Just search through the changelogs for "mapper toys".
  • Having wave after wave of monsters in the same area is almost always bad practice (obvious exception: siege maps). It really is just a way of saying "Hey guys, look at me; I was too lazy to build a bigger map". If you want tons and tons of monsters in your map, make sure the map is big.
  • ...But don't fill every single area, room, crack or crevice of your map with monsters either! Some mappers believe they have to shove as many monsters into a map as possible, LITERALLY EVERYWHERE, but this isn't true. Sometimes you should just be able to walk around and enjoy the scenery without constantly having monsters in your face (see: Keledros Prelude, that small area after the spider boss).
  • Secrets! Secrets secrets secrets secrets.
  • Backtracking, when not overused, is good. Currently there are so many linear maps (*BARF*) that people have forgotten what backtracking means altogether. Having to pull a lever somewhere to open a gate (see: The Keep) or having to retrieve a key from an NPC (see: Bloodrose) are things that should be used more often.
  • In fact, something as simple as pressing a button could even spice up your map; Most MS:C maps these days have little to no interactivity, other than slaying monsters that is.

Best of luck mapping! I can't wait to see what a pro like you can come up with.

Quick question: Are you a texture artist as well now?

Also, if you've been out of the loop of Goldsource mapping for a while, might I suggest J.A.C.K.? It's Hammer on crack. Download it for free here or purchase the slightly newer version on Steam here. This brand new, updated, J.A.C.K.-specific FGD file I finished making a few days ago will be necessary if you're going to map using J.A.C.K.
 
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Monika's_BFFEx0256

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Yes to all above. Anything that encourages exploration, like secrets and unique rooms.
 

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Where is the entire Lanethan? Still hasn't been put back up on the site since the move as far as I'm concerned. Would be worth reading for any kind of content creators because we really need more lore friendly things.

Also, MSC veteran, I'm flattered!
 

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Open world!

Could be the Elven Forest (I forget the name? Something Sylen?)

Would be cool to have another very high level town like Sorc Villa

An Elven Forest would be fun to plan out and get done. I have never seen Sorc Villa. Here is a list of areas I currently remember, excluding my contributions:

Edana, Thornlands, Helena (the semi-buggy siege version from 12 years ago), and some sort of cave map with a shack containing a blacksmith or other NPC at the beginning. I still have a lot to see and am having a good time exploring (I'll post more about this in the MSC discussion forum soon).

wow! It's the legendary Father Brandon!

Eswen Sylen would be awesome! Or the Thunder plains.. although honestly I have always wanted to see Dayla Haven ;)

http://www.moddb.com/mods/master-sword/images/new-map1

YES! We need more of this kind of stuff in my opinion. Wasn't Dayla Haven supposed to be a monestary near bloodrose or something? A map that featured said monestary and also included some kind of gradual transition from a bloodrose aestehtic to the elven forests would be cool as ice cubes.

(assuming I have my lore right on that, which I may not..)

Definitely completely open, like Thornlands. We don't have enough maps like that. Plus Thothie has made a few new tools in the new alpha which can help make free roam maps more resource friendly.

Oh god, Dayla Haven. That map was pretty much an experiment in making 90% of the map out of triangle shaped brushes all aligned so I could make whatever kind of terrain I wanted (within the limits of the engine). Now that I have used Displacements for Team Fortress 2 mapping I am going to have some sadness returning to completely brush based terrain.

Sadly, I do not have the hammer files for any of my MS related content. It was all lost very long ago.

I would absolutely love to do some nice and detailed (and fun to explore) transitional zones. I would also love to stick strictly to the game lore, which I need to read up on again.

The legenday Father Brandon himself! Wow! Welcome back!

Keledros Prelude is still one of my all-time favorite maps. Right up there with other brilliant maps like the Thornlands, the Plains of Daragoth and the Aluhandra Desert. What these maps have in common is that they are free-roam maps; MasterSword: Continued is in dire need of those.

At the moment, MS:C really has no shortage of ugly-looking linear maps, unfortunately. I won't name any examples but I'm sure you can find them if you look in-game. For years now, (amateur) mappers have constantly tried to outdo each other by making "TEH HARDEST BADEST DUNGON MAPE!!!1!" and this has resulted in a whole slew of bland, linear, boring, ugly, unbalanced, repetitive, undetailed maps with bizarre layouts, 'rainbow selections' of monsters (no consistency whatsoever) and complete lack of atmosphere or even basic interactivity. And most of these maps don't even tie in to the lore.

You describe Keledros Prelude as "melted moldy cheese". Believe it or not, even though it's over eleven years old, it's still better than most of the more recent MS:C maps, most notably in terms of gameplay, layout and visuals.

Your Team Fortress 2 work looks stunning. Just stunning. I have no doubt someone with your skill could actually deliver. That's why I agree with Lucifer Majiskus and The Oyster Hippopotamus: You should totally do the hardest thing there is to do: Make a free-roam map.

In Lanethan's lore thread you'll find a nifty selection of maps I'm sure lots of people are willing to see. Lucifer already suggested Eswen Sylen, which is a good suggestion, but I'd prefer to see the Thunder Plains, Cacaron or Eswen Hathelon.

Some general suggestions:
  • Make sure your map sticks to a theme. If you're going to make an ice map, populate it with ice monsters almost exclusively. Consistency is very important. Don't 'rainbow' your monster layout as it is one of the easiest ways to ruin a map completely. A great example of how it should be done: Shadahar Palace.
  • Don't use the monster tiers ramping system; it has serious flaws. Instead, use one of the many mapper toys Thothie has designed over the years. Apart from the obvious HP and damage multipliers, you can also set monster resistances to elements, movement speed, various degrees of armor rating and much more. Just search through the changelogs for "mapper toys".
  • Having wave after wave of monsters in the same area is almost always bad practice (obvious exception: siege maps). It really is just a way of saying "Hey guys, look at me; I was too lazy to build a bigger map". If you want tons and tons of monsters in your map, make sure the map is big.
  • ...But don't fill every single area, room, crack or crevice of your map with monsters either! Some mappers believe they have to shove as many monsters into a map as possible, LITERALLY EVERYWHERE, but this isn't true. Sometimes you should just be able to walk around and enjoy the scenery without constantly having monsters in your face (see: Keledros Prelude, that small area after the spider boss).
  • Secrets! Secrets secrets secrets secrets.
  • Backtracking, when not overused, is good. Currently there are so many linear maps (*BARF*) that people have forgotten what backtracking means altogether. Having to pull a lever somewhere to open a gate (see: The Keep) or having to retrieve a key from an NPC (see: Bloodrose) are things that should be used more often.
  • In fact, something as simple as pressing a button could even spice up your map; Most MS:C maps these days have little to no interactivity, other than slaying monsters that is.

Best of luck mapping! I can't wait to see what a pro like you can come up with.

Quick question: Are you a texture artist as well now?

Also, if you've been out of the loop of Goldsource mapping for a while, might I suggest J.A.C.K.? It's Hammer on crack. Download it for free here or purchase the slightly newer version on Steam here. This brand new, updated, J.A.C.K.-specific FGD file I finished making a few days ago will be necessary if you're going to map using J.A.C.K.

Thanks for the welcome back and positive comment about my TF2 maps!

I'm glad that Keledros Prelude is appreciated. I remember not optimizing it very well and it taking over 24 hours for a few compiles.

I actually recently watched a MSC "Let's Play" (and selfishly skipped ahead to Keledros Prelude). I noticed a big flaw that I left in the bandit cavern with the jailed ogre. You can't get out unless you die or defeat everyone. I would like to fix this at some point.

I think doing free roaming maps would actually be easier for me than linear, script driven maps currently. I would have to relearn quite a bit of entity work for scripting the sequences required for what I might envision.

I don't mind some hard for the sake of hard user submitted content. But it feels like anything that is not lore driven or that is made for a challenge specifically should be gated off behind one zone. Like a gauntlet zone that is disconnected from the lore of the world and leads to all the super hard dungeon maps. Perhaps an NPC warning of a strange rift opening to new unknown lands in that gaunlet zone as well.

I say all this having not progressed to these maps yet though. If they are all intergrated into lore nicely then ignore what I wrote.

I'll check out the lore thread. Thanks for the link!

A big thanks for all of the suggestions as well. I plan on having any maps I create tested while in the alpha/beta stages by you guys if possible, I want feedback as I go.

I did some texture work for my TF2 map cp_haddou but that was mainly image editing and creating overlays. I would like to do textures if possible. Can HL1 use 1024x1024 textures now or is it still limited to 512x512 being the highest?

I'll check out J.A.C.K. as well!

Yes to all above. Anything that encourages exploration, like secrets and unique rooms.

Glad to see mutual agreement for what kind of map is wanted. I plan to focus on good use of unique rooms/atmosphere through lighting and ambient sound. Having a nice place to chill in between danger is great.

Where is the entire Lanethan? Still hasn't been put back up on the site since the move as far as I'm concerned. Would be worth reading for any kind of content creators because we really need more lore friendly things.

Also, MSC veteran, I'm flattered!

I would like to read it if possible. I think you said that you've been playing since 2007. I am a MSC n00b compared to you. I just made some maps and then forgot almost everything.
 

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Can HL1 use 1024x1024 textures now or is it still limited to 512x512 being the highest?
The limit is still 512 x 512 pixels, but you could consider adding detail textures.

I noticed a big flaw that I left in the bandit cavern with the jailed ogre. You can't get out unless you die or defeat everyone. I would like to fix this at some point.
Sadly, stuff like this became the norm years ago (mostly because of the never-ending slew of abysmal linear maps) but I encourage you to go against it!

Edit: Speaking about compiling: A Chinese coding prodigy who goes by the name of 'vluzacn' has updated Zoner's Half-Life Tools significantly. These amazing compile tools, known as "ZHLT VL34" (or "VHLT v34" more commonly) can be found here.
 
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Father Brandon

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The limit is still 512 x 512 pixels, but you could consider adding detail textures.


Sadly, stuff like this became the norm years ago (mostly because of the never-ending slew of abysmal linear maps) but I encourage you to go against it!

Edit: Speaking about compiling: A Chinese coding prodigy who goes by the name of 'vluzacn' has updated Zoner's Half-Life Tools significantly. These amazing compile tools, known as "ZHLT VL34" (or "VHLT v34" more commonly) can be found here.

Sucks to hear that it's the norm as the only thing it causes is frustration. Thanks for the compile tool, I didn't know about it. I'm going to have to relearn a bit of information for HL1 mapping again.
 

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Hey, welcome back!

Please let it be thunder plains if you are going for open world maps. A high level open world map with plenty to explore would be welcoming. Besides the lore of the map gives you a large opening to go wild with traps and enemy layout, things like that. You should check out the thunder plains in Final Fantasy X, i think it is the best example of what could be expected from such a place in this game in terms of ambience. Dark skybox, lightning strikes, terrors lurking in the darkness preparing to ambush you in the open world, caves could be a thing to house you from the terrors and lightning, maybe you could even surprise the player with another terror lurking within the cave, so you get double the problems in your hands for trying to make it safe. Same goes with lightning rods that protect you from lightning strikes. The element of surprise mixed with terror ( not that type of terror that pulls jumpscares but instead something that could be problematic to the player like an enemy that is persitant in killing you and doesn't give up, also follows you anywhere you go), it's awesome.

Anything elven related is also welcoming, most importantly a high level town. Why? We really need to up the forging in this game, there is hardly any forgeable gear outside of sorc_villa. Having a large elven town would increase the possibilities of having lots more things to do with this game. Creating potions, mixing potions, enchanting gear, forge gear, questlines, bounties, beasts to tame to become new pets, npcs to hire for battle, npc trainers (get xp rewards after doing tasks), spell forging (create spells from ingredients), spell merging (create stronger spells from merging spells), possible new level cap, skill upgrades through questing/training (bypass dual wield penalty for example with training, learn the ability to cast stronger spells by dual casting the same spell into one large spell, learn how to merge, learn how to cast spells with both hands, learn how to tank mage, learn how to properly use archery and unlock the ability to block with certain bows), etc ,etc.

There is so much stuff this game could use, the introduction of forgeables in sorc_villa was like a babystep into the right direction.

As you can see, both paths are great in its own rights, a town would open the path to implement alot more content to mess around with while a properly made open world map would revive this game in the right way. Dungeon raid maps is what we get most of the time, these aren't really that fun when you get 50 of them in a row and have to play each of them 200 times to get something. Basically you are hitting pinatas at the end of a map to get unique drops, i mean this works... but it's overused. Game needs more explorable maps, i remember when i was playing thornlands, sfor, chapel, nm_thornlands and some other maps. These were the best moments i had in this game. There are some dungeon raid maps that were fun to explore once or twice, but it gets boring real fast as the real goal is the large pinata at the end of the map waiting for you to stab it real hard and make it drop something worthwhile your time.

In the end, the choice is yours, i believe you will make the right call if you ever plan on making a new map. What matters in the end is that you are contributing with something towards a future patch.
 

Father Brandon

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Hey, welcome back!

Please let it be thunder plains if you are going for open world maps. A high level open world map with plenty to explore would be welcoming. Besides the lore of the map gives you a large opening to go wild with traps and enemy layout, things like that. You should check out the thunder plains in Final Fantasy X, i think it is the best example of what could be expected from such a place in this game in terms of ambience. Dark skybox, lightning strikes, terrors lurking in the darkness preparing to ambush you in the open world, caves could be a thing to house you from the terrors and lightning, maybe you could even surprise the player with another terror lurking within the cave, so you get double the problems in your hands for trying to make it safe. Same goes with lightning rods that protect you from lightning strikes. The element of surprise mixed with terror ( not that type of terror that pulls jumpscares but instead something that could be problematic to the player like an enemy that is persitant in killing you and doesn't give up, also follows you anywhere you go), it's awesome.

Anything elven related is also welcoming, most importantly a high level town. Why? We really need to up the forging in this game, there is hardly any forgeable gear outside of sorc_villa. Having a large elven town would increase the possibilities of having lots more things to do with this game. Creating potions, mixing potions, enchanting gear, forge gear, questlines, bounties, beasts to tame to become new pets, npcs to hire for battle, npc trainers (get xp rewards after doing tasks), spell forging (create spells from ingredients), spell merging (create stronger spells from merging spells), possible new level cap, skill upgrades through questing/training (bypass dual wield penalty for example with training, learn the ability to cast stronger spells by dual casting the same spell into one large spell, learn how to merge, learn how to cast spells with both hands, learn how to tank mage, learn how to properly use archery and unlock the ability to block with certain bows), etc ,etc.

There is so much stuff this game could use, the introduction of forgeables in sorc_villa was like a babystep into the right direction.

As you can see, both paths are great in its own rights, a town would open the path to implement alot more content to mess around with while a properly made open world map would revive this game in the right way. Dungeon raid maps is what we get most of the time, these aren't really that fun when you get 50 of them in a row and have to play each of them 200 times to get something. Basically you are hitting pinatas at the end of a map to get unique drops, i mean this works... but it's overused. Game needs more explorable maps, i remember when i was playing thornlands, sfor, chapel, nm_thornlands and some other maps. These were the best moments i had in this game. There are some dungeon raid maps that were fun to explore once or twice, but it gets boring real fast as the real goal is the large pinata at the end of the map waiting for you to stab it real hard and make it drop something worthwhile your time.

In the end, the choice is yours, i believe you will make the right call if you ever plan on making a new map. What matters in the end is that you are contributing with something towards a future patch.

Thanks for the warm welcome! Thunder Plains could be awesome. I'm also digging the idea of doing an open zone that connects to another high level town. I'm kind of curious about something. I assume (and definitely correct me if I am wrong) that the majority of MSC players are basically at the highest level possible. What constitutes a fair challenge at that point? Would anyone try starting the game over fresh to complete a new lower level open exploration zone with challenges? Something I foresee is that, with no character wipes in a game like this, people will only want to do end-game difficulty content forever. This is not necessarily bad but it does lend to potential fast power creep forever regarding gear. Does this ever feel stale? I hope I don't sound like I'm attacking anyone, so I apologize if this topic is upsetting.

There are not many MMO type games that do not wipe progress as big changes are released while still in development.

Has there been any discussion of releasing a new version of the game that fixes up whatever issues people have trouble with and starts everyone fresh? It would have to be a huge update that potentially removes, re-balances and smooths things out. At the same time, a few servers could be dedicated to a legacy version (the version out now) and people could still play on their fully geared up accounts. The new version could stop at a certain map level content wise while things are being worked on and then maps could be re-added (and some new ones added) as patches are released.

I have played games where I don't mind a wipe every few months if the game itself is enjoyable enough to play through but I understand it could be completely different for other people.

That was sort of off-topic, but on-topic again:

What high level content do you currently find the most enjoyable and why? From what I have gathered here so far, people enjoy high level zones that are very exploration friendly and that do not have a specific raid-like boss that feels like a chore (unless you think a raid-like boss with some neat rewards would be cool in another exploration zone. Sort of like the spider boss in the Thornlands).

I'm really enjoying these discussions and I'm going to be drawing up a draft of my map on paper soon. Again, a big thanks to everyone for a friendly welcome back.
 
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