[WiP] Frost_Temple

[Regorty]

This map is a simple fork in a the road map, one way goes to the Frozen Temple and the other way goes to the Lava Temple. It is relatively easy of a map and built more for training.

This map will no longer connect to Desert Temple, the would be boss room no longer exists either. But, after being able to get rid of the teleporter room I was able to add in an elevator that would take the player down to the Lava Temple which adds more visual support that you are traveling deeper into the mountain/volcano. I changed the lighting around a bit and would like some feedback on the lighting to know if it fits well, is too bright or too dark, needs more or less light in areas etc.

Screenshots of the map so far: (New Pictures, Enjoy)

Entrance Room: (Spawn)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/l3rt1fqcixq5q ... _00001.jpg

Main Room:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8pgu4sv914i1q ... _00002.jpg

Side Room: (by Frozen Temple transition)
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8rb8u5iakx5xi ... _00003.jpg

Lower Cavern:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/crky5yuylx70w ... _00004.jpg

Boss Room before Lava Temple:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/383m1r97hqitv ... _00005.jpg

Lava Temple Transition:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/i8kf8tfhp4cpp ... _00007.jpg

 

[Dridmar]

For the grates in the first picture, they kinda look like they have texture lighting enabled for them. You should check that just incase.

 

[Thothie]

Might also be using an Additive render mode, instead of Solid.

Looks good - though it does disturb me somewhat that you've moved onto another map before providing the source for the first.

 

[Regorty]

Might also be using an Additive render mode, instead of Solid.

Looks good - though it does disturb me somewhat that you've moved onto another map before providing the source for the first.

Yep! I just threw it into the trash and moved on!

Nah I'm just kidding, I am just too damned lazy to finish the cliff brushwork.

 

[Regorty]

I have finally figured out my map layout for these maps I have been working on for the past 2-3 months.

Map Layout:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/09dxgdq75qtj0 ... eta%29.png

I have an idea to have a special boss in Frost Temple where you are required to get 4 items, one from each of the other temple maps, where you use to, more or less, summon him and fight. If this plan were to happen you would have to fight 4 bosses before fighting this 'big boss' and receive whatever would be considered a good prize. But I am not sure is people wanna be jumping maps and what not so I would like some feed back on this idea. Or perhaps have it so you summon the boss first then use the special items, that way if the map crashing during the boss fight you don't have to rerun all the maps again. The Items will be used to unlock the chest room so you can claim your prize.

I wanna have the series made into a gauntlet map where you can votemap to Frost Temple, but not to any of the other temple sections. That's pretty much why I set it up in a branching layout, except for the one Desert Temple part, which is for obvious reasons.

Also in the mean time, until I get the rest of the maps made and have setup, the maps can be played individually as disconnected maps but wouldn't reward the special items needed. So there will be something to play with until I finally get all 5 maps completed, the Hillside map will be just more of a challenge to see if I can even map outdoors.

 

[Charles445]

Don't forget to add secrets!

 

[Thothie]

Also in the mean time, until I get the rest of the maps made and have setup, the maps can be played individually as disconnected maps but wouldn't reward the special items needed. So there will be something to play with until I finally get all 5 maps completed

Danke danke danke... We've lost more maps to mappers getting overzealous with their overall plans without releasing individual completed works than anything else, really, so this will help a lot. Also helps us cut down on next-to-no content patches.

As for secrets, now that ye've sent me yer source, I'm seeing at least one chamber with no visible entry, and lots of places to stick maybe a few extra sekrats. Still needs to be populated though.

 

[Regorty]

Also in the mean time, until I get the rest of the maps made and have setup, the maps can be played individually as disconnected maps but wouldn't reward the special items needed. So there will be something to play with until I finally get all 5 maps completed

Danke danke danke... We've lost more maps to mappers getting overzealous with their overall plans without releasing individual completed works than anything else, really, so this will help a lot. Also helps us cut down on next-to-no content patches.

As for secrets, now that ye've sent me yer source, I'm seeing at least one chamber with no visible entry, and lots of places to stick maybe a few extra sekrats. Still needs to be populated though.

If by no visible entrance you are referring to that room past the grate in by the teleporter, then yes there is no way to get there. if you look closely to it you will noticed i nulled a lot of the textures so its more of a preview of the next map. The passage to a next map in the temple is a bit of a secret too, but I'm sure people will find it in no time!

The idea of having as individual maps for now just means i gotta build them one at a time instead of building them all at once. My frost temple map is getting further along, right now I am in the process of building the boss room. Trying to plan out how it will function, like what monsters to have to support the boss, perks, layout, all that good stuff. Also trying to figure out how to do the keys to the chest AFTER the boss but also prevent players from fighting the boss before having ALL the keys. So if someone could help me with this I would appriciate it.

As for the secrets. I may not have many of them, I have to worry abut hitting Alloc. Block limit due to these maps being 'oversized' with their large hallways and big rooms. The frost temple is easy compared to all the other parts, except the boss and its protectors. It's mostly wildlife and some mini boss monsters, which can act more as practice for lower levels or whatever.

 

[Thothie]

Trying to plan out how it will function, like what monsters to have to support the boss, perks, layout, all that good stuff. Also trying to figure out how to do the keys to the chest AFTER the boss but also prevent players from fighting the boss before having ALL the keys. So if someone could help me with this I would appriciate it.

Usual approach here is to simply insert x# of crystals in a circle to activate the boss portal of dewm, or some such, and to drop the boss chest once he's defeated. Not sure if you're at something more complicated.

 

[Regorty]

Trying to plan out how it will function, like what monsters to have to support the boss, perks, layout, all that good stuff. Also trying to figure out how to do the keys to the chest AFTER the boss but also prevent players from fighting the boss before having ALL the keys. So if someone could help me with this I would appriciate it.

Usual approach here is to simply insert x# of crystals in a circle to activate the boss portal of dewm, or some such, and to drop the boss chest once he's defeated. Not sure if you're at something more complicated.

I just need 4 keys of some sort, all different so you have to explore the entire series to get them. The rest of the it sound pretty good though. Maybe I'll think of how to lay it out, may need your help to do it.

 

[Regorty]

I have gotten really lazy the past month and haven't been working on this map at all. But I am now slowly starting to work on it again. Maybe I will have the brushwork done the end of Summer. (Not including the cliffs, they are too annoying to make)

Sidenote: the Boss Room, like the final boss dude, will but its own map. So you just use the 4 keys to open the open and enter the transition, maybe that way I can build a larger and a little more elaborate Boss Room. Idk how well that will work out though, but I hope having a map dedicated to a boss will reduce the likely hood of it crashing, but I could be wrong.

Edit:
This is what my map looks like on Hammer, I got to say I really need to start mapping smaller or something.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/usoyocbvgv8hq ... ew%201.png

 

[Thothie]

This is what my map looks like on Hammer, I got to say I really need to start mapping smaller or something.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/usoyocbvgv8hq ... ew%201.png

Nah, that's nice and big... and looks like it maybe fairly optimal to boot. A more common problem is cramming too many small / angled objects in a single area, or worse, in multiple areas that look in on each other - or getting hung up on making such tiny details that you don't have much actual map to play on.

 

[Regorty]

This is what my map looks like on Hammer, I got to say I really need to start mapping smaller or something.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/usoyocbvgv8hq ... ew%201.png

Nah, that's nice and big... and looks like it maybe fairly optimal to boot. A more common problem is cramming too many small / angled objects in a single area, or worse, in multiple areas that look in on each other - or getting hung up on making such tiny details that you don't have much actual map to play on.

Ok, I will skip out a bit on some of the smaller detailed works that prolly won't be very noticeable. I will still keep to the larger detailed works. I mean I shouldn't expect people to stop and admire the scenery when all they wanna do is fight monsters...

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I mean I shouldn't expect people to stop and admire the scenery when all they wanna do is fight monsters...

Nobody actually wants to do that, though.

 

[zeus9860]

Lately its quite the contrary, people finish maps and run around the maps, chances they will see the layout and textures and other stuff and speak about it is much bigger than you think.

And not even everyone wants to fight monsters, most people are sort of pissed and annoyed with the newest maps since they are nowhere player-friendly, so people want to avoid them for the best but still want to go there to get something, which makes people sort of quit the game, thinking they are forced to do something they dont like or don't want to. Like doing 40 runs in nashalarath to get a matching set of new weapons (good luck with that folks!), or if lucky, 20 runs. And this is just one set out of 3 (possibly).

I don't have anything against nashalarath, it's just that, overall, it's a waste of time and patience that map, little rewarding with the time spent in it. Shender's main path is actually fun and nicely thought of (minus the spiders, those can gtfo with all the ear rape) and the elf part, i don't want to discuss that awfully planned sector of the map.

So yeah, whatever you do, make sure your map doesn't end up like that kind of shit that will piss people off, that is if you want to avoid people bad mouthing your work for one (i will if it turns out bad like tundra or any other annoying map that we have gotten lately).

 

[Bordoga]

You've made quite a few points there, but I have to agree with you.

As of now I'm also in on a Map (Project) I started.But I'm glad you stated your thoughts there so I can also keep that in mind, as progressing forward. So for that thanks.
</off topic>

Regorty I think you're doing good

 

[Regorty]

Lately its quite the contrary, people finish maps and run around the maps, chances they will see the layout and textures and other stuff and speak about it is much bigger than you think.

And not even everyone wants to fight monsters, most people are sort of pissed and annoyed with the newest maps since they are nowhere player-friendly, so people want to avoid them for the best but still want to go there to get something, which makes people sort of quit the game, thinking they are forced to do something they dont like or don't want to. Like doing 40 runs in nashalarath to get a matching set of new weapons (good luck with that folks!), or if lucky, 20 runs. And this is just one set out of 3 (possibly).

I don't have anything against nashalarath, it's just that, overall, it's a waste of time and patience that map, little rewarding with the time spent in it. Shender's main path is actually fun and nicely thought of (minus the spiders, those can gtfo with all the ear rape) and the elf part, i don't want to discuss that awfully planned sector of the map.

So yeah, whatever you do, make sure your map doesn't end up like that kind of **** that will piss people off, that is if you want to avoid people bad mouthing your work for one (i will if it turns out bad like tundra or any other annoying map that we have gotten lately).

Map.. the.. map.. annoying. GOT IT!

I don't have full control over the content of monsters or loot within the map. Thothie takes over that part. I just layout the map and add lights and doors and ambiance to the map. So If you don't like the monsters in my maps, well... idk what to tell ya. Because I do aim to make this map series to take a while to get the actual boss guy where you'll get the good loot stuff you really want. Individually you can look at the other maps as... well lower level training for lesser loots.

This map in particular will be the easiest of the bunch, Hopefully, since it has no REAL boss in it nor does it have a load of rooms where you gotta kill all the monsters to progress. Right now I only got 2 areas where you gotta do that. One is access to the Lava Map that I have later planned and another area that's more for training rather than the series itself. Everything else you can run past or fight.

I will try to avoid monsters that rape your ears as well.

 

[Thothie]

Well, you do have full control over the mobs in your map, if you place them yourself. If you leave me to do it, well, seems I've developed a bit of a reputation for making nightmarishly difficult maps, so you do so at your own risk, especially in the difficulty range you're requesting.

Lewts is another thing, but you're free to make requests. I try to put at least one new unique item out per map.

 

[zeus9860]

Well, you do have full control over the mobs in your map, if you place them yourself. If you leave me to do it, well, seems I've developed a bit of a reputation for making nightmarishly difficult maps, so you do so at your own risk, especially in the difficulty range you're requesting.

Lewts is another thing, but you're free to make requests. I try to put at least one new unique item out per map.

Not nightmarishly, awfully planned schemes, more like it. Nightmarishly was when the_wall first came out, most of the weapons were out of the map's league, only BD, BH and NH were worthwhile using back then and still easily outmatched. Everyone and their mother was being raped by elves and some people even rage quitted back then, i never gave up and adapted to said difficulty in a couple of days of practise along with many others, i even made that map my grinding ground and made over 120 successfull runs in less than a year before it got split into two. This is a good example that a map is difficult, enjoyable and still rewarding. People had to try out many ways to overcome stronger than player minions when in battle.

Shender_east is just another thing to reconsider here, should be replanned or at least properly nerfed to the point of being enjoyable, not a pain. (elf part only, everything else is rather fine/acceptable)

Keldorn told me to request a heal-other spell that works like rejuv, except no cancel on hit, this could be a solution but i also think it would remain stupid when healing other players, if it were to be 10% heal scale. Rejuv would make more sense for that since it gets cancelled on hit, so healing players would be more troublesome.
Basically, my suggestion (keldorn didn't give any details so i made these on my own):
- heal-other = npc healing, could have a slow preparation time before cast[eg: 2 seconds above usual] and have a limit of 3 casts per spell preparation [to avoid massive healing from a single healing source] or simply set the spell like a normal one when preparing and have it heal one or two time(s) per cast, with no interruptions when hit;
- rejuv = scaled player healing with cancel on hit.

 

[Thothie]

Meh, shender_east's nightmare will be a cake walk soon enough - I'm sure Keldorn can already solo it in 10 minutes. But one thing I forgot to mention on that battle, is repulse weapons. esp. The Thunderbreaker and Dragonaxe (remember dragon breath repels even flame retardant beasts) - Unholy Blade's repulse shield, also not too shabby. The flight model on the Felewyn guardians has rather sad forward momentum, and it's quite easy to push them all well out of the battle area, and have them take so long to get back to you that you can heal up and ice shield everything again. Only a few of them have long ranged attacks, and they aren't very frequent.

But yeah, it's supposed to be the most difficult battle in the game, when the HP scale is maxed out, so it is performing as it should. If folks weren't frustrated with it, I'd have to tweak it out until they were. (Granted, I could say the same of a certain other 10 minute battle, but at least getting there is still frustrating.)

As for uninterruptible rejuv - that may become a Title thing, and break all sorts of balance in the process. Granted, it'll likely be one of those Titles you'll have to tone down your darkness level for, and may ban you from the element entirely, along with the Affliction line.

 

[zeus9860]

Yeah i could solo it too if i didn't have 200 ping since i live in europe, not america. Owell. :roll:


Oh and that part is much easier solo than in group, group = more difficult battle, but then in terms of rewards and xp... y'know what to expect.

Also let's not derail this thread anymore, it's like taking the light away from the OP.

 

[Thothie]

Yeah, I mentioned that elsewhere - I suppose I shoulda added the caveat "with ms_fakehp set to 6000". I mean, *I* can solo it at the default settings with my 1000hp test char, fairly easily, and did maybe a dozen times during construction. I can hold my own with the hp difficulty maxed out, but can't win, which again, is as it should be... and I'm no Keldorn. (I can't really test against his vile Apostle magics!)

But, yes, back to topic...

Map layout is also a factor, when I go about deciding what sorta map you're going to wind up with, should I get stuck with the task of making the decision myself. Cyax's map is a good example:



What we have here, is a map that's packed densely as f*ck, with more nooks and crannies than a whole package of Thomas's English Muffins. (Originally two maps that I stuck together, actually.)

Now, when I got it, it was *semi* populated, with a thousand little secrets, many with meager treasure chests in them.

The idea to swap out all these pansie treasure chests for hidden items, for Sylphiel's quest, was mine, but the fact that the map was more exploration than combat oriented was pretty evident just from the map design. (There's even a few puzzles in here.)

Personally, I would had made it self adjusting, but Cyax demanded a low level map - not a huge deal, as it's, again, more exploration oriented, and the main final reward is utilitarian in nature, likely useful to both n00bs and vets - though in the long term, it may lean a bit more to vets, as it opens a new, somewhat expensive, purchase, back in Edana.



The reverse being true with the_wall. It was clear, from the get-go, that it was a straight away gauntlet, with no turns or even y-junctions anywhere. It was also inevitable that there'd have to be a lot of lengthy stop-gap battles for the map to last more than a few moments... Although, it's true, the entire lower half of the wall (from The Cold One on, aka. the_wall2), was entirely my doing, but I decided to keep to theme in there, tossing in the escort mission for variety. Skilla also did this lore map with epic levels in mind, so yeah, it's pretty effing hard.



Hunderswamp was populated mostly by its author, Sgt. Rehab (only bit I really stuck in was the transition from The Wall), and offers a bit more of a mix, with multiple pathing to the same areas, dead ends, and some loop arounds, all set together with natural bends. It also has quite a bit of randomization in its monster make up in some parts, which is something I'm usually too lazy to do myself.

So take these things into account when laying out your map, especially if you don't feel up to populating it yourself. If your map only offers one direction to travel, you'll probably wind up with a gauntlet map, regardless of your intent - barring really creative requests.

 

[Regorty]

I don't think I have ever played Hunderswamp before. So I would have tp actually play it to understand what you are are saying better. So perhaps maybe so one can run be through the map so I can look around the map and learn how it was made.

 

[Thothie]

You shouldn't have any difficulty running through with the dev commands, though some test characters would help too...

...Lemme guess - I never got you any dev commands or test characters. >_>

I'll get on that... Meanwhile, the layout isn't too different from Orc_For (by the same author), save that it has more loop backs, and, thanks to my being a dick, the opening boss chamber offshoot now requires you explore the rest of the map. I don't think he'd mind me sending you the source via PM, provided you don't go spreading it about, so I'll do that too.

 

[zeus9860]

Seems to be a bit more related to hunderswamp the layout but yet entirelly different (not being so straight forward)...

Idk the layout of Frost_temple so yeah i got no clue what to say about it, might be for the best anyways.

PS: That video about keldorn slaying the dragon is no big deal, i did the same last week using acid lance the most and no potions (was looking for new drops this patch). Saved up the DBH rages for the minions and used two before boss spawn. He died after a couple of minutes, he isn't that hard. Just too tanky, bit slow and hits like a truck, it might become more difficult when the minions spawn and gang the player (ice shield pops, rip player). Also depends on the minions there and the gear the player uses, ice blade minions can become a problem if not dealt with fast. Spear minions can be a huge problem (i got two on my run under the effect of demon blood, biggest threat ever i think) followed by speedhacking cres/blood blade users.

I still consider ihotohr the hardest boss in the game at this very moment, he will even compete with higher tier maps in the future i'm pretty sure of that, the dude has too much hax in his hands, it's just "godlike"! (and i'm still waiting for his and evelnd's or w/e his name is staves )