The proposed class system

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I would like to know what is being planned in regards to the future class system. I have seen the chart of dreams but what I am most interested in is how the devs see this system working. How is this going to be implemented and what are the gameplay mechanics going to look like? Please, provide us with as many details and ideas as you can. This is one thing I and many others are really looking forward to seeing someday and I think it would be a good idea to get a discussion started on this issue.

 

[Thothie]

Darn. Your other question would have been easier (and more fun) to answer.

Eh, the system is sketchy at best, but the basic idea is to have certain minimum requirements for each Title, to prevent characters becoming useless through over-specialization. Then you have a "trainer" NPC, who grants specific Titles, by completion of quests and donation of certain items and/or gold, in addition to Title-specific skill/stat requirements. The simpler Titles would be available at Edana, Deralia, and The Hall of Deralia, while some more complicated, possibly partly hidden or even evil Titles would be granted by special NPC's elsewhere in the world, who would only appear if certain conditions were met... Such as a Necromancer living beneath the Halls of Deralia, or maybe even one of the Council of Twelve, a Hollow One, seeking powerful recruits for the Cult of Kharaztorant, roaming the halls of their strongholds. More specialized titles would require you complete a certain amount of training under the Titles of the previous tiers first. Various religious, racial, and eventually Apostle-only Titles would be made available as the system expanded.

If you have a more specific question, feel free to ask, but that's the jist of it.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Council of Twelve

Who...?

 

[Thothie]

Meh, lost to the Wiki crash, me thinks - the leadership of the Kharaztorant cult is made up of the twelve oldest Hollow Ones, ie. The Council of Twelve. The K. Cult having two possible paths of evolution: Acolyte->Initiate->Elder->Hollow One or Acolyte->Larva->Childre->??? depending on the recipient's reaction to "The Gift of Kharaztorant". ( Dragon sperm FTW! )

 

[Dejiko]

Meh, lost to the Wiki crash, me thinks - the leadership of the Kharaztorant cult is made up of the twelve oldest Hollow Ones, ie. The Council of Twelve. The K. Cult having two possible paths of evolution: Acolyte->Initiate->Elder->Hollow One or Acolyte->Larva->Childre->??? depending on the recipient's reaction to "The Gift of Kharaztorant". ( Dragon sperm FTW! )

so if they go "eeeewwwww" they turn into an initiate instead of a larva?

 

[Thothie]

The whole cult's existence is the ancient and dieing Kharaztorant's effort to create a new generation of progeny. Most of the cult represents failed experiments in that effort, ranging from terrifying twisted mutations to incorporeal beings of great power, but said experiments continue, nonetheless. I would assume even Khaz himself is unaware as to how each of the recruits will react or why they do as they do, or he'd attempt some less random approach both in selection and application.

 

[Stoned]

The whole cult's existence is the ancient and dieing Kharaztorant's effort to create a new generation of progeny. Most of the cult represents failed experiments in that effort, ranging from terrifying twisted mutations to incorporeal beings of great power, but said experiments continue, nonetheless. I would assume even Khaz himself is unaware as to how each of the recruits will react or why they do as they do, or he'd attempt some less random approach both in selection and application.

Khaz should learn a bit about Psychology then

 

[Thothie]

I meant he doesn't know how they will react, physically. I dun think he much cares how they react, psychologically. Khaz knows all he needs to know about psychology, namely that some folks will do anything for power.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Darn. Your other question would have been easier (and more fun) to answer.

Don't worry, I will ask those questions. I just didn't want to flood the forums with a bunch of threads all at one time.

If you have a more specific question, feel free to ask, but that's the jist of it.

My biggest question is how stats will be modified. What I am hoping will be the case is that it will modify the stats of your generalist. This way, the old style of gameplay is not lost. In fact, it's outright vital. Also, will we be able to leave classes or will they be permanent once we choose one? I REALLY hope they are not permanent and that a player can become an Adventurer at any time. Then, if he chooses, he can choose a different class. I think this will increase the replay value 100 fold, literally.

Also, will there be basic classes for every level skill? By that I mean one class specific to only swords, one for axes, one for only magic, and (hopefully) one for each magic subskill, such as a class that specializes only in affliction or divination?
From my understanding of your post, it will work something like this: Train the Div class, train the swords/knight class and combine them to create a Paladin? That would be awesome, I think.

 

[The Man In Black]

Combined classes are a huge part of the system (Such as your Paladin example).

 

[Thothie]

My biggest question is how stats will be modified.

They won't. Rather a skill set would be enhanced (either by damage or experienced gained bonuses) that would move a character to eventually be specialized to a certain function, coupled, in some cases, with some special abilities to further enhance that specific role.

I am hoping will be the case is that it will modify the stats of your generalist. This way, the old style of gameplay is not lost. In fact, it's outright vital.

Generalist will always be an option, as the chart of dreams indicates in its center. Generalists will be required to keep all their skills within a certain balance to maintain their Title bonuses, however.

Also, will we be able to leave classes or will they be permanent once we choose one?

Personally, I'd prefer the ability to be able to. It'd have to be difficult enough so as not to lead to abuse of the system, however, thus the more specialized Titles require the less specialized Titles to be acquired first, thus requiring you to climb the tree again, if you abandon a Title in an attempt to round off the character. It might still be worth it to climb to Titles to the first or second tiers to round a character back to the Generalist titles, or visa-versa, but the idea would be that once in the more specialized tiers, it'd be a bit painful (but not impossible) to go back and try for another path.

that I mean one class specific to only swords, one for axes, one for only magic, and (hopefully) one for each magic subskill, such as a class that specializes only in affliction or divination?

No. A single skill does not a class make. A class performs a function in a combat group. Bluntman, swordman, daggerman, etc. all perform the same function, rather what is desired is classes that serve offensive, defensive, support, etc. Ideally, all classes would use an array of skills towards a specific function. They will favor certain skill sets in this effort, but as no single skill serves any one function effectively, each would use a set of skills, and have a set of special abilities to achieve their goal.

...and it figures Trillian would crash during the one chance I had to catch MiB on-line. ><

 

[Marisa]

Have you tried meebo.com messenger?

 

[Thothie]

Meh, Lord K, who has pointed me to some of the finest software I use regularly, recommended Pidgin to me - and I downloaded it, but keep not getting around to trying it. MiB recommended a web-page based multi-messenger, but some of the convos I have need to be at least semi-secure, and I'd likely get yelled at for using anything that dicey, were it discovered.

Be a royal pain to setup all my contacts' aliases again, me thinks is what keeps me using this thing. I won't know who anyone is anymore. >_>

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

They won't. Rather a skill set would be enhanced (either by damage or experienced gained bonuses) that would move a character to eventually be specialized to a certain function, coupled, in some cases, with some special abilities to further enhance that specific role.

If stats are not modified and players are allowed to leave classes to level up other areas won't this lead to mages having the same HP and defense stats as offensive classes?
Perhaps I don't really understand what I am looking at, but the chart of dreams does appear to modify stats. Magi, for example, get +5% magic and -5% physical. Also, it's not quite clear to me if that means -5% physical attack or -5% physical defense, or both.
Furthermore, I am a bit wary about the exp bonus because when a player achieves max levels in all of his stats the generalist will theoretically outclass the specialist. This may negate the awesome replay value that a class system will bring. I am not against exp bonuses but I think damage and defense buffs/debuffs are vital.

Generalists Titles will be required to keep all their skills within a certain balance to maintain their Title bonuses, however.

What exactly are the generalists title bonuses? The chart of dreams doesn't make that clear. I had assumed that a generalist would receive no bonuses, their advantage being the ability to adapt to any scenario. Also, if they don't keep their levels even what will happen to them? Will it change their class? If so, how will that work in conjunction with the 'trainer' NPC(s) who grant titles?

Also, I completely forgot about the question I am most concerned with. How will classes be made to look the part? I am not too keen on the idea of having clerics running around in Sir Gerics Armor wielding greater thunder axes. Or having the IceBlade/Glacial wall wielding nova blades and wearing PA. The only thing I can think of is outright banning equips for certain classes. Divination is already banned for a necromancer, why not ban him from holding a felewyn shard in a lame attempt to restore his HP?

 

[Thothie]

If stats are not modified and players are allowed to leave classes to level up other areas won't this lead to mages having the same HP and defense stats as offensive classes?

No, because magic gives sh*t for HP. +10% magic/-10% physical, means damage adjustment +/-10% when using magic and non-magical attacks, respectively.

What exactly are the generalists title bonuses?

Generalist gets a mild global XP bonus so long as he keeps his stats within a restricted balance, the restriction being more severe and requiring a higher base to gain each subsequent Generalist Title. This allows Generalist to remain a viable path, despite all the advantages specialists maybe given that a Generalist won't have access to.

Also, I completely forgot about the question I am most concerned with. How will classes be made to look the part? I am not too keen on the idea of having clerics running around in Sir Gerics Armor wielding greater thunder axes.

Some weapon restrictions may apply, but they'll likely be more game-play oriented than style/aesthetic. A few weapons, items, armors, and spells will be Title specific, in addition to special abilities.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

No, because magic gives sh*t for HP.

But if a player levels up every single skill to, say, level 30 and then chooses a magic class he will have the same defence as a level 30 player, as well as the exact same HP as a level 30 player. It's entirely possible this mage would have more HP than an offensive melee specialist if he were to level up this way first. He will also have the ability to wield any weapon up to 30, regardless of whether or not it suits his role, and equip heavy armors because his strength stat is so high. It seems to me that if buffs and debuffs are not applied to HP, defense, and possibly even weight, speed, and stamina to every class there will be no incentive to specialize until you have first maxed out your levels as a generalist. And once that happens a majority of classes will have the exact same defense, speed, and stamina, and every single class will have the exact same HP. This leaves the generalist effectively useless once all levels are maxed out and makes many of the classes very similar.

Some weapon restrictions may apply, but they'll likely be more game-play oriented than style/aesthetic. A few weapons, items, armors, and spells will be Title specific, in addition to special abilities.

While I agree that gameplay is the single most important aspect behind a class system, I think aesthetics is important too. A good game has great gameplay. A great game has great gameplay and an awesome atmosphere. I will be happy no matter what if this system becomes a reality but I hope that aesthetics will be a defining characteristic of our system.

 

[zeus9860]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but generalist = all skills "balanced"? I don't like much that system because there's so many choices and i can't even decide what to take, if generalist is similiar to the current gameplay, which is using any type of weapons/skills and magics without any special abilities except for a xp bonus then i guess that's my choice for the future

Got to start balancing my skills if that system gets in-game, gah >_<

 

[Thothie]

there will be no incentive to specialize until you have first maxed out your levels as a generalist

Generalists will level much slower than specialists, as was the original creator's intent. Generalists XP bonuses would likely be from 1-5%, while the specialist's would run from %10-%50, in addition to various special abilities, and in some cases, ability to gather XP in ways other classes cannot (in the case of support and pet Titles). Someone who's already high level, and chooses a specialist class is of course going to have better stats than someone who started anew, but of two characters who start at the same time, the one who goes specialist soonest is going to have skills far beyond what the Generalist could obtain in the same time period. Part of the hope behind the system is to implement it on a reward-only basis, insomuch as possible, with a minimum number of restrictions.

Tricky bit will be making the specialists rewards inviting enough, without making the Generalist a non-viable class.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but generalist = all skills "balanced"? I don't like much that system because there's so many choices and i can't even decide what to take, if generalist is similiar to the current gameplay, which is using any type of weapons/skills and magics without any special abilities except for a xp bonus then i guess that's my choice for the future

You can forgoe the Generalists Titles as well, and just play as you do now as "Adventurer". But hopefully we'll get enough Titles going eventually you'll find one yer interested in, and/or works with your current skill layout.

 

[Marisa]

I'm possibly interested in some of the titles, though just my personal taste nitpicking, I'd like to see some kind of etch-engraved silver gloves-and-greaves item possibly come out, and a mana-dumping/consuming beam magic, as well as something like the ice-shotgun from wizardwars. (I know, magic revamp and such, just mentioning I like the idea.)
Hesitantly favor, as much as I like the "expert of everything" style, at least it's not going to be as strict as some gameplay styles, these classes feel a bit more like early-mid ultima online, without as much mix and match.
Kind of a kirby/megaman thing now, like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XiAL7zRLI8

 

[Keldorn]

Is the new class system coming in the next patch (or the next one after)?

 

[The Man In Black]

Almost definitely not.