It's probably too soon, but...

[The Man In Black]

Bump and Poll.

 

[evilsquirrel]

Those who vote option 2 and option 3, please post reasonings so that your concerns may be ammended.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Well here are my reasons:

MS: C related reason (yes, I actually care about this mod, wtf, right): the mod will most likely die. I am quite sure that roughly 80% of the community will leave if their characters are deleted permanently, if not more.

Personal reason: my five Felewyn shards will be lost

The new changes look awesome (with the possible exception of "weapon balancing"), I have no doubt that a new magic system will actually make magic even more awesome, and gold actually having a function other than... uh... [insert function here] will also be a nice touch, but does it weigh up against people getting frustrated because they will lose all their stuff, causing them to leave en mass?

 

[The Man In Black]

Weapon balancing means less swords and more of the other weapons. There may be some damage adjustments across the board to make everything fit into their proper curves. Also, I hope to move some weapons away from the grind-a-map forever system and get into them to the quest system. Obviously the top level ones won't be quests in Edana, but hopefull we won't see a whole lot of farming.

As for the community leaving.. Why do you think this is a poll? ;-) If the majority of the community is against, the characters stay, but the implementaions will likely not happen.

PS: Oh, and there's one spell you'll really love. When I put pen to paper, my immediate thought was that you would cream yourself :roll:

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Also, I hope to move some weapons away from the grind-a-map forever system and get into them to the quest system.

OK now I am this [] close to saying that you can disregard my vote, if you pull that system off
Not a bad idea at all.

You're right about this being a poll and (as of now) the majority voting for the char reset option, but this poll is only a few hours old, right?

But if a char deletion truly is the best thing for the mod, go for it I say.

 

[Thothie]

A poll of that epic proportion deserves its own thread, and vote options more specific than "Option1, Option2, and Option3" - so everyone votes without going back to the top post.

Again, last time we brought this up, 80% of the community died within 3 weeks, even though it seemed a lot of folks were for it, and I really don't think this community can take the double whammy in its current state.

 

[The Man In Black]

I may have to stab you, Thoth :roll: And the "Op1, Op2, Op3" thing is so that people actually read the whole post before they say OMFG CHAR WIPE NO NO NO.

 

[evilsquirrel]

@thothie: "Option" votes force people to read posts before they go with thier instant reaction of "O NOZ I DON WANA LOOZ MAI UBRE ITAMZ!??!! WTF Y U ALL VOET YEIS!?"

@J-M: It is my honest opinion that after these changes are complete, a wipe is in the best interest of the mod. Magic, for one, is broken completely right now...parry needs to be gotten rid of, and there have been so many exploits (dating back to MS:C 1.0) that items and gold are pretty much screwed too...

still@J-M&other-potential-nay-sayers: The "weapon balancing" we have in mind is not mere DPS changes and the dreaded nerfing. We intend to give each weapon type distinct advantages and disadvantages in relation to the others, as well as revolving around a different playstyle. What weapon-class you choose to specialize in will revolve around your playstyle, be it a more defensive one, a hit and run, tanking, support, or whatever you choose to do.

 

[Thothie]

Meh, I already voted option1, not because I read it, but because I thought this was yet another thread where someone started a vote for no reason and didn't know how to fill out the form.

Most of this was in progress of being done without a character wipe. Slowly taking shape, in part, to avoid the mass rebellion, but also due to the sheer volume of work that needs to be done. I really think you are looking at a years worth of scripting and coding to rebalance this sucker from scratch. Even then, I can promise you, within a year after you’ll be in the same boat again, as people find new exploits, lack of balances, ways to twink, and otherwise ruin the game as best they can, as so many folks make this their primary objective.

I think all you'll get with a character wipe is a temporary reprieve.

 

[Picadilly]

Even then, I can promise you, within a year after you’ll be in the same boat again, as people find new exploits, lack of balances, ways to twink, and otherwise ruin the game as best they can, as so many folks make this their primary objective.

First, I'd like to address the assertions made in Thothie's quote. I've stayed quiet about this for a long time, but I'm going to interject my own opinion here:

You reap what you sow...

Keep fueling the community with the fumes of suspicion, and you'll continue to have foaming, senseless mobs thirsting for blood, tearing the mod apart at the seams looking to settle personal vendettas at any cost. The simple fact is that NOBODY intentionally tries to kill MS:C. Hell, nobody would need to. MS:C does a good job of killing itself with these unfriendly, and quite honestly, petty attitudes. I wonder how many people have been chased off by this unfriendly, suspicious climate? One of those might have been the guy/girl who would've given MS:C its next epic map series, or sweet looking model. We'll never know now...

Exploits are usually found accidentally, and in my experience, handed straight to the "Bugs" thread.

Lack of balances?! Are you kidding me? Lack of balances... Would that be somewhat akin to having a game with dozens of weapons, but only 1 or 2 that can be considered [ds]an effective boss killer?[/ds] Or, would that be more like: "Unnamed(1) has received a Bludgeon Hammer from the Artifact Chest"...?

Twinking... This is the biggest joke of all. People who are intentionally twinking aren't doing it to "ruin the game". They're doing it because they have an opinion that differs from the "l337" upper ruling class of MS:C that won't be validated in the forums. They're protesting by waging a public relations campaign in the game, directly. But, more than anything, it's a stupid flamewar, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I've always said: "Make the weapon level requirements absolute."

End of discussion

I'll vote for the character wipe when an attitude wipe comes along with it. I'm tired of playing a game that so heavily factionalized, so tiringly vindictive, so exclusive, that you basically end up having to choose the Red Team or the Blue Team or be damned.

In addition, I feel that MS:C is really starting to show its age on the HL engine. Why not save these changes for MS:S? Then, everyone has to start a new character, you won't even need a vote!

 

[vecraude]

Well with thothie leaving, most of the community has already left with him...so MS:C is pretty much on its last string already with one action. So either do up something thats gonna make people go "holy shit, these are AWSOME!!" or just move it to source and pray that its a hit.

The thing that im seeing here is this, as thothie hands over to MiB, people will consistantly consider the mod RiP:C cause god help me their has been talk of majority of the devs being RiP. Ok well that being said, who cares? give them the chance to shine I say.

So the big thing is do what you gotta do to make MS:C shine and bring back the masses, wether it be char wipes, complete makeover, or hell even scrap the original project and rebuild from the ground up, but remember that people that DO still play will want to be able to play so I advise a char wipe when you have all the stuff ready to put into the game, otherwise thats gonna be a lot of pissed players >.>;...

Make the good first impression and were sure to get our community back, and maybe thothie will come back and play as a player .

 

[evilsquirrel]

Keep fueling the community with the fumes of suspicion, and you'll continue to have foaming, senseless mobs thirsting for blood, tearing the mod apart at the seams looking to settle personal vendettas at any cost. The simple fact is that NOBODY intentionally tries to kill MS:C. Hell, nobody would need to. MS:C does a good job of killing itself with these unfriendly, and quite honestly, petty attitudes. I wonder how many people have been chased off by this unfriendly, suspicious climate? One of those might have been the guy/girl who would've given MS:C its next epic map series, or sweet looking model. We'll never know now...

So...Right here you're saying that MS:C is killing itself, but what you mean is that the current community sucks.

Exploits are usually found accidentally, and in my experience, handed straight to the "Bugs" thread.

I'll agree to this, many exploits are turned in to the proper place after being found on accident, not looked for. But there are still some which are abused for quite awhile before being turned in - and some that are even abused until found by another - who turns them in.

Lack of balances?! Are you kidding me? Lack of balances... Would that be somewhat akin to having a game with dozens of weapons, but only 1 or 2 that can be considered [ds]an effective boss killer?[/ds] Or, would that be more like: "Unnamed(1) has received a Bludgeon Hammer from the Artifact Chest"...?

So...right here you're agreeing that the weapons need rebalancing, and that the way higher level items are obtained needs changed, which is part of what you'd get if you voted YES (option 1).

Twinking... This is the biggest joke of all. People who are intentionally twinking aren't doing it to "ruin the game". They're doing it because they have an opinion that differs from the "l337" upper ruling class of MS:C that won't be validated in the forums. They're protesting by waging a public relations campaign in the game, directly. But, more than anything, it's a stupid flamewar, nothing more, nothing less. Personally, I've always said: "Make the weapon level requirements absolute."

No, people don't twink to ruin the game - I and many others (including MiB) know this. The people twinking do it because they want to help the new players out, and be friendly towards them. Good intentions, but the end result is that they end up lessening that new players enjoyment of the game by taking out the time they would've played to get the item the normal way. New players may never even see some areas, simply because they don't need to go there to get the items - because they got them from a friend.

In a game where most of the fun comes from exploration of the game world, and experimentation with the items, this effectively ruins the game for a new player in the same way that using cheatcodes in a console game makes the game fun for a little while - but do you ever pick it up again? I usually don't.

End of discussion

...People with other opinions that wish to discuss them with you would beg to differ.

I'll vote for the character wipe when an attitude wipe comes along with it. I'm tired of playing a game that so heavily factionalized, so tiringly vindictive, so exclusive, that you basically end up having to choose the Red Team or the Blue Team or be damned.

What does any of this have to do with "Is fixing many game mechanics in an attempt to make the game more interesting and fun worth a character wipe?" ....? I seriosly do not see the logic in your reasoning here. Please explain.

In addition, I feel that MS:C is really starting to show its age on the HL engine. Why not save these changes for MS:S? Then, everyone has to start a new character, you won't even need a vote!

Because we have a team willing to make these changes on this version - MS:S doesn't even have a leveling system yet, to my knowlege.




@vecraude: This character wipe will only be enacted when it is entirely necessary, FN backups will be provided to the general community so that any who wish to continue playing the most up-to-date patch that does not require a Char wipe may do so. And thanks for your support.

@thothie: We are aware that a character wipe is a temporary fix, as the subject is explained right now. We are in the process of designing systems whereby "grinding" and other elements of the game that aren't really fun would be phased out, in favor of others (quests to upgrade items, etc). We are aware that people will eventually get to max level with all the uber items and hand them out to every new player they see.


@others: Please, explain your votes. And try to do so in a civil, and intelligible manner.

 

[FER]

About the weapons: The gap between each new weapon that gets released it quite big.

I would like to see item hunting like in old Final fantasy games (forget that they are overhyped, i mean the old ones that got remaked for GBA), where stronger weapons are sold at the next town or in chests in the next dungeon, but the actual weapon that outstand from the common ones are either well hidden in a dungeon, need a hard quest/sacrifice of anothe really good item or they are rarely dropped/stealed by a boss or rare monster.

 

[Shadeska]

I found that by simply listening to everyone then giving my honest opinion, that I never had to "take sides." Again, to be honest, I was never aware there were two distinct sides.

I'm just as excited for Source as everyone else is. I believe it would be a good idea to upgrade MS:C as much as we can by giving it all these great features, get MS:S into a beta (hell, ALPHA) stage for everyone to play, then perform the character wipe on MS:C. Master Sword v1 was the least stable mod I have ever played. I enjoyed it more than most mods I have tried. What does this tell everyone about how great MS:S will be?

Whatever conflict there is in the community, I ask you to step back a bit and take a good, hard look at everything. It's really not worth destroying what all these people have worked for. Your enjoyment.

 

[Gurluas]

Id say we balance anything even without a wipe.
People have to choose - nerfed items etc.
OR... Wipe

I choose nerfed...Dont want to start all over after all this work.

 

[The Man In Black]

Whatever conflict there is in the community, I ask you to step back a bit and take a good, hard look at everything. It's really not worth destroying what all these people have worked for. Your enjoyment.

Are you implying that I'm polling a char wipe because I want to PUNISH people? =|

@Gurluas: Nerfing items is not the balance we're thinking of. A new magic system won't happen without a wipe, as everyone will keep their levels, thus all the work we put into rebalancing and the element-opposition play will mean nothing. Also, item locations won't really change, as it would do nothing for our hard-core players. They have their items, so new quests (and the like) would be almost entirely pointless.

 

[CSS]

If you were to wipe the characters, I would not put in the effort to get back what measly of a lvl 24 character I have now. I think other players would act the same way.

 

[Shadeska]

Whatever conflict there is in the community, I ask you to step back a bit and take a good, hard look at everything. It's really not worth destroying what all these people have worked for. Your enjoyment.

Are you implying that I'm polling a char wipe because I want to PUNISH people? =|

Eh...no. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I was referring to all the b*tching, fighting, flaming, so-called attempts to destroy MS:C, etc. that are going on. I'm all for the wipe and balancing!

 

[ceriux]

i dont care what happens honestly... i just started playing again, and it seems really easy since my characters str is in magic lol...

 

[Thothie]

Exploits are usually found accidentally, and in my experience, handed straight to the "Bugs" thread.

For every exploit I’ve seen reported, there’s been at least a hundred I’ve patched up that were not… However, the same is true with bugs, although the ratio is slightly better in that department. There are those who do go out of their way to attempt to hide exploits from the devs for fear that they’ll be fixed, as demonstrated repeatedly by monitoring chat and watching the radical change in behavior when a dev joins, bind tracking, or watching what people do in servers they think are passworded.

Lack of balances?! Are you kidding me? Lack of balances... Would that be somewhat akin to having a game with dozens of weapons, but only 1 or 2 that can be considered [ds]an effective boss killer?[/ds] Or, would that be more like: "Unnamed(1) has received a Bludgeon Hammer from the Artifact Chest"...?

Tis true, any weapon described as an “effective boss killer” should really just be axed from the game straight off, and my tip-toeing around and slowly nerfing weapons over time, rather than just removing them and coming up with new weapon concepts to avoid mass rebellion is a policy I should have dropped long ago. Also tend to agree that weapon restrictions likely need to be hard-core to cut down on the twinkers (ie. you can’t even pick the weapon up.)

I put baited weapons into the game last month to track down who is doing the twinking, and I can tell ye, after thorough research on the subject, the artifact chests count for much much less than 1% of the issue. The vast majority of out of depth weapons have been handed down from other players, and there are many, many players with a half dozen or more duplicates of every other major item, which they promptly give away to their level 10 clan mates, or what not. Lots of players spend time positively bragging about their twinking exploits, and really seem to play the game to do that and nothing else.

At the same time, I do feel we need a new system that allows the lower and higher end characters to interact more effectively, without contaminating the game progression too severely. While I’m sure you could re-work the magic system without a character wipe, that sort of omni-level interaction, on the other hand, may involve fundamental changes to the game that would require a character wipe (and likely, also entail level caps, and/or an entirely different XP system). I don’t see anything along those lines being proposed, however. My other fear with changes that sweeping, is that rather than continuing development, you are creating a new game entirely, which is why I always tried to keep the core of this game intact, however flawed it maybe.

 

[Liv]

wipe char = end with msc [FN]. Before wipe, please make copy of my character (MoRt STEAM_ID 0:1:11643461) to LAN-game and send it to me ;p)

 

[PBarnum]

Seriously. A scare of a characgter wipe happened before and look what happened... A huge community came out of it. Yes it might have taken a while but lots and lots of people joined. So with that said, I don't see the danger of a character wipe.

 

[Thothie]

We actually had a much larger community before the last scare, but the mod was also still fresh.

 

[evilsquirrel]

We actually had a much larger community before the last scare, but the mod was also still fresh.

Many of the people supposedly "scared away" by the previous character wipe rumor were nothing more than the 'mod hoppers' that play the new mod of the week for a little while, then ditch... is what you wanted to say, here >_>

A character wipe, after signifigant progress, actually has the potential to attract MORE players. If you advertise (hype) on major mod sites, and pester the people over at steampowered.com long enough to get the mod on thier in-steam mod list... plenty of people will be watching the mod, and when its released a bunch will hop on board, since they've now got a chance to be just as good as everyone else.

 

[Gurluas]

The scare ruined the msc community alot back then, servers were completely empty etc.

I still say: rebalance but do not wipe..
dont remove weapons but make them weaker etc.
Change levels for SC, remove the "hidden" nulls so it is easier to level up, nerf if needed etc.