Food for thought.

[Sabre]

Note: Many of you are not going to like what I say, but too damned bad. That said...

(tl;dr summary at bottom)

Lodagond is killing MS:C.

Why, you ask? Well, for starters, the amount of experience you can gain from this series is ridiculous, especially in the latter half of the series. We know Maldora gives an insane amount as it is, but his minions and his images give 1.5k and 1.8k, respectively. This is made worse by the fact that anyone worthy enough to kill Maldora can down either of these mobs in a matter of fifteen seconds. Hm, no wonder all the parry whores are there :roll:

Moreover, the loot is ridiculous. The 'bonus' chest on the third map single-handedly destroys half of our map repertoire, as it hands out valuable items(they're not rares, anymore) with zero effort. I'm sure I am not the only one that wants this chest removed for good.

All in all, the series needs to be toned the f*ck down, and other maps boosted(in moderation). I feel that MS:C may very well be overrun by idiots and exploiters should this trend continue. Also, the loot that isn't exclusive to the series needs to be removed, for the sake of map variety.

That said, I also have another statement:

I just obtained, with the help of some trusted friends, one of the new tomahawks(affliction), only to find that it's nothing but the bastard child of a rune axe and a thunder axe...The level requirement, for a throwable rune axe, with DoT, is to be 27? What's the point when I can get a blooddrinker that blows these new axes out of the water, for no additional effort? Wait, I take that back; it's less effort to get a blood drinker, since Runegahr helps.
W.
T.
F.
I'm kinda embarrassed, actually...Thothie, you took my tomahawk, gave it an awesome concept...Then destroyed it by making it a rune axe. This, at the same time, is just perpetuating the swordsmanship sphere of combat. Don't get me wrong, you put some great weapons into other classes, but if I didn't get any HP boosts out of being a JoaT, I would be a swordsman, because it would be a pain in the ass to be another class. Blunts are decent with the addition of the Bludgeon Hammer, archery with the HxBow, but the rest are left to rot.

For the tl;dr'ers:

Remove from Lodagond:
Loot that spawns in other maps
Insane XP

Add to rest of maps:
Moderately more XP
OR
Ramp Lodagond to make the amount of work comparable to the XP. (I prefer the first option)

Boost tomahawks, tone swords down slightly, and henceforth add weaponry that actually is worth obtaining and using regularly.

 

[Dridmar]

I agree completely with the removing of that bonus chest.

 

[villager]

The Tomahawk was meant to replace all my other axes to hopefully reduce my weight and maybe start leveling my Axe Handling again, but after playing around with Sabres I'm extremely disappointed in how difficult it was to obtain it. 35-40 damage per swing on an orc with a 26 Axe Handling? ...

As for the bonus chest; One regen/speed pot should do (It being a bonus chest). What it has in it now is just rediculous.

 

[Jelly]

I so agree to that.

 

[Clan Hunter]

I have voiced feelings along these lines to others, Sabre, mostly along the effort to reward ratio of maps. Two biggest examples that stick in my craw are Bows/Xbows and The Keep.

Bows and Crossbows, more specifically, the ease with which one can stockpile good crossbow ammo vs good bow ammo, I can deal with the xbows being able to dish out more damage than a bow. 2 Players can run Mscaves running past everything with little fear of death and pick up a 100 stack of blessed and steel bolts; very fast and very easy. Now on the other side of the coin to get comparable stacks of arrows you have to run Foutpost; not as fast or easy.


And number two the keep. The leadup stuff isn't too hateful, especially when you got a group but the bosses are just refrackingdankulous. I've run into the orion bow boss and have been dropped at 600+ hp with ice shield by his special attack where he fires off a rapid series of arrows. I was at full at the time as another player dropped a healing circle, he wasn't attacking me, no henchgoons were present, and just scored a few hits with my bloodaxe. Now I've noticed dropwise these guys drop mostly level 15 or 20 weaponry. Many of these weapons are literally not worth the effort of fighting these guys, a dark maul? No thanks, I'll go get that for 1/10th the bloodshed elsewhere. An elven bow!? A special that drops a 600+ hp character with an ice shield going for a freaking elven bow!? The other drop should be a garuntee for that guy. Then theres the constantly spawning trained archers (minor annoyance, only get in the way when trying to heal) , trained goons and the odd elite that keep stepping in. Not to mention you can't use elemental weapons against them (at least for very long) so unless you got the means to WTFINSTAGIB them with DB and DCs you're in for a long drawn out and ultimately not worth it battle as they continue to pop potions and more and more freaking goons join the fray. Yes I've heard you can make them drop the potion by doing 100 damage to them before they finish the drink. I have yet to see that, even when doing 110 damage a charged swing on my axe while hes trying to chug.

As for the tomahawk/weapon equality thing, yeah, Shin let me play around with his a little when we got it. Sabre has summed them up pretty well. Elemental rune axes (which btw, the standard rune axe a level 20 weapon is weaker than a pfck, a level 12 weapon, and thats not even including the pfck's speed attack ability). Another case of effort to reward ratio not really matching up. Try to take on Mal without runey's help for a crappy axe (funny how many of these there are) or let runey do a good chunk of the work for yet another highly useful sword (hoarfrost, dark, BD). The throw seems quite the joke on the tomahawk's too. Joe who at axes 32 said his does about 9.6 a hit when thrown. The throw effect on weapons seems more or a novelty than actually useful. If I want to deal damage before running in to melee, I'll hit my crossbow button and do 100+ with a shot before running in and pulling out my weapon. Hell it might just be more effective to run in circles and keep shooting the crossbow at the target, I mean I can just get some more bolts real quick (see above)

And then theres this new sword thats out. The high end's are scrambling to get it. I'm willing to bet too its gonna render the UGA useless for div training.

Anyways, sleep.

 

[Rickler]

Why do all (M)MORPG have to make the game a grind to get to the top. I think like all games, the majority of players should be able make it to the end game.

 

[brian4]

Agreed, grinding is a bad thing. I think the focus of Master Sword, like any game, should be fun.

 

[FER]

And then theres this new sword thats out. The high end's are scrambling to get it. I'm willing to bet too its gonna render the UGA useless for div training.

thanks god


But i agree, its too much xp for greater minions, considering they aren't the meanest monster you fight on Lodagond.
And that bonus chest is quite over the top and ruins the need to play other maps (inb4other maps are crash shit)

 

[Dridmar]

dark maul? No thanks, I'll go get that for 1/10th the bloodshed elsewhere. An elven bow!? A special that drops a 600+ hp character with an ice shield going for a freaking elven bow!?

Have you tried IslesofDread2? (30-40 map). Oh the rewards are so great...not. If you haven't seen the rewards for this hard map here they are.

Rewards
----------
Lightning Storm Scroll
Granite Mace
Dark Maul
Serpant Gauntlets
Potion of Stability
Golden Helm
Wolf Charm

Now is it just me or are these rewards crap for this hard map? Most (or even all) of these items can be found on easier maps. For example, I believe Jerdid also gives out a potion of stability. If you needed one, where would you get it from, Isles2 or Gert_Forest? >.>

Now Thothie, I hope to god that you make different rewards for this map sometime. You know, something that would make this map worth playing. Right now I feel like I wasted my time making this map because of the rewards. One could say I feel like Sabre and his weapon idea being made like that.

Now here's and idea, get rid of the wolf charm and put like a gloam charm or a baby gloam pet. Then people would have a reason to play the map and we would have another pet.

There, now I said it...

Rewards=Crap....

 

[Strider Mankarde]

I agree with the whole exp thing...Especially when *cough* certain people *cough* just spam loda runs JUST to level themselves up and get all the rares....And then hand them out to random people. -.-

Again, Loda = toned down and only very few rares spawn

And everything else = evened out and better drops on newer maps.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I agree with the whole exp thing...Especially when *cough* certain people *cough* just spam loda runs JUST to level themselves up

Could you explain to me exactly what the issue is here? I don't get it.

People play a map that has good XP to level up. It's like basic logic.

 

[Tentadrilus]

I vote that we replace the greater minions with Motes of Maldora, which give the same amount of XP, but they're a lot tougher (slightly less tough than the fragments). Here's an idea to make Lodagond a tad tougher - at the end of Lodagond-4 you could be transported to a mini-map (Lodagond-5 hurrrrr) where you have a set amount of time to get out of the fortress (and recieve your loot) before it crashes into the desert below (and you lose your loot). If you don't get there in time, you get zapped to the desert. Ja?

 

[Sabre]

I agree with the whole exp thing...Especially when *cough* certain people *cough* just spam loda runs JUST to level themselves up

Could you explain to me exactly what the issue is here? I don't get it.

People play a map that has good XP to level up. It's like basic logic.

Agreed. However, therein lies the problem in that people almost exclusively play the series, because there is little or no incentive to do otherwise. I would ask that this be changed, to encourage the playing of other maps, and to prevent excessive parry whoring in lodagond-4, by members of this community that know that they are essentially exploiting, yet they continue to do this. Some measures have been taken to prevent outright exploiting(Preventing a changelevel, for instance), but overall the series needs to be toned way down.
Thothie, you claim this game is not ready for level 40's, yet you are allowing them to be made, through Lodagond... :?

 

[Thraxis]

@J-M: The problem is that this is Master Sword: Continued. Not Lol-a-gond: Is Awesome.

Not @ JM: The only other solution I see besides ramping down Lod and ramping up other maps, is to make more awesome uber maps like lodagond with crazy rewards and exp too. Which further would split the game into "Before uber" and "Finally I can do uber" maps, with players just grindin until they can get to do the crazy maps out there.

And I agree with Sabre on the comment to thoth. As much as I don't want to see all the enemies xp set to rediculously low for their difficulty, when you are facing enemies that normally give 3 - 400 xp, and for the same difficulty (especially with a decent group of people) getting 1-2k, my mind is boggled.

Will try to reason more when my brain isn't malfunctioning from crappy sleep, but something does need to be done in my opinion.

 

[HumanSteak]

I agree that some monsters in the lodagond series give too much exp (like images) but most are just decent. It's all the other maps that doesn't give enough :|. For example islesofdread2, Gloams takes ages to kill only for 375... I'd still get more exp by killing flayers in the mean time with much more ease. When am I going to stop having to say that? When will flayers stop being the best source of crappy exp in this game? (except lodagond of course).

I also agree that Lodagond is killing all the other maps since they're only ones worth playing. I feel so bad for Dridje who worked hard to make isles2, a very nice and creepy map btw, just to see it die so fast because Thothie didn't make it worth playing :?. Whoever wants any of the rewards it has to offer can't kill a single gloam and still, even newbs don't want whatever we can get there, except maybe wolf charm but it can be obtained in much easier ways. Wolf charms should be exclusive to Gertenheld_forest imo and every maps should have something making them worth playing.

And I would just repeat what some people said by mentioning that Sabre gotta feel the same way as Dridje at the moment since all the tomahawks seems to be a clone of the most useless axe ever... Ya might end up losing dedicated mappers and modelers by making their work so useless and thrown to oblivion.

Suggestions:
1. Gloams should give about 750 exp just so the time/exp ratio becomes slightly better than flayers. This would make the map more enjoyable for high levels who wants to train than foutpost and be something else than Lodagond over and over again. Gloam pets and better exp would make this map worth playing.

2. Exclusive rewards to most maps. For example, I LOVE the idea of doing Ara over and over again just to collect stacks of dwarven bolts. This map won't ever die for me! I wish I could say that about other maps.

3. (Once again) Old_helena was great for it's exclusive rewards AND exp at first, then only for exclusive rewards, and once everybody has these, the map dies. Restore it's exp and it will live again .

4. Lostcaverns, totally wasted work. (I feel for you Jon )It would be great if it would become like Ara, an awesome spot to get expendables.

5. If wolf charms were exclusive to Gertenheld_forest the people in it's required range would play it once again, not only high levels who plays it once to see what spawns there.

6. I have no idea why it came to 6 while it was my second concern but here it is : TOMAHAWKS! I suggest the damage gets multiplied by 2,5. It would seem reasonable considering the plans that Sabre had in mind for them and how hard they are to get. A throwable rune axe... even though I like collecting stuff I wouldn't even bother collecting them all since they're hard to get and are so useless. GTA is easy to get yet is much better than any of them...

 

[villager]

Gloams aren't THAT hard! Plus they're infinite, someone could easily exploit that map if the XP was any higher :S

 

[Dridmar]

Gloams aren't THAT hard! Plus they're infinite, someone could easily exploit that map if the XP was any higher :S

It really depends on the your level, your damage, and how many players are there. Since most people are killing all the gloams together, the xp is shared so it doesn't seem like that much compared to soloing them.

 

[Thothie]

When will flayers stop being the best source of crappy exp in this game?

Flayers are worth 100XP base. Gloams are worth 250, base (375 on Islesofdread2 because they be boosted). So the answer to the question would be: when ye get off the crack. Besides, everyone knows the best XP/Diff ratio are hungry skeles anyways. >_>

The Tomahawks are all, hands down, the meanest 1h axes in the game.

As for the treasure layout on Islesofdread2, in terms of stuff that actually exists, and isn’t unique to some other map, there isn’t much in the way of better layout. Plus the map’s exploitable, so the treasure is easy to get, in addition to being generous on the XP to effort ratio. Granted, I balanced that out before I fixed monster retaliate, which made the map a bit harder, but the various exploits render that bit moot.

I have nerfed the lodagond finale rewards and the XP ramp severely since the first incarnation. Suppose I can do so again *sigh*…

There is nothing in the Lodagond-3 chest unique to any other map. It’s all randomly generated via the epic items list. (Albiet, there’s a thing or two that shouldn’t be on that list.)

Lodagond, in addition to being amongst the most visually pleasing of our maps, is the only level 40+ map series on the external vote list. The level 40 folks, basically, have no where else to go. Sure, there’s Aluhandra2 – but Aluhandra’s a lot harder to spell , plus it’s connected, and thus not on the list, in addition to being a much shorter trip.

I suspect that Lodagond will continue to be home of the level 40's and the level 30's who leech of them until we have a larger array of level 40 maps.

 

[brian4]

Lodagond, in addition to being amongst the most visually pleasing of our maps, is the only level 40+ map series on the external vote list. The level 40 folks, basically, have no where else to go. Sure, there’s Aluhandra2 – but Aluhandra’s a lot harder to spell , plus it’s connected, and thus not on the list, in addition to being a much shorter trip.

Agreed. Not much else that provides a challenge for 40+ people.

The EXP and rewards are fine. Its not like you don't have to beat two of the hardest bosses in the game to get them... Runeghar friggin feeds by hitting you! Maldora has a rape beam which he uses over and over! And it's not like lodagond is the only series that has tons of awesome rewards. Look at old_helena!

 

[FER]

But isnt Atholo the hardest boss?

The Tomahawks are all, hands down, the meanest 1h axes in the game.

That barely means something, ive heard it deals average of 30-50 damage

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

From reading this little gem of a thread I have managed to conclude that high-level players actually play and level (!) in high-level maps.

OMFG

 

[Dridmar]

As for the treasure layout on Islesofdread2, in terms of stuff that actually exists, and isn’t unique to some other map, there isn’t much in the way of better layout. Plus the map’s exploitable, so the treasure is easy to get, in addition to being generous on the XP to effort ratio. Granted, I balanced that out before I fixed monster retaliate, which made the map a bit harder, but the various exploits render that bit moot.

How the hell is it exploitable?? I thought I fixed all problems with it...
Still. Make gloam pets for it!

 

[Wolfhound]

What you should have concluded is that high level players play and level in 1 (one) set of related maps where they get more experience for the work they put in than they would at other maps of comparable difficulty, and at the same time as they're raking in the experience they also get all the best weapons over and over again.

 

[villager]

The Tomahawks are all, hands down, the meanest 1h axes in the game.

Well then, completely remove the throw ability and increase the damage, because I want an axe I enjoy using, because right now, it's not enjoyable. I can seriously kill a Bludgeon faster with the Blood axe OR the Rune Axe than the Tomahawk. I'd like to see the Tomahawk better than the Blood Drinker, seeing how it's harder to obtain.

How the hell is it exploitable?? I thought I fixed all problems with it...
Still. Make gloam pets for it!

Gloams spawn infinitely if you don't finish the map :\

 

[Sabre]

I have nerfed the lodagond finale rewards and the XP ramp severely since the first incarnation. Suppose I can do so again *sigh*…

Obviously not enough, Maldora coughs up 25k-30k. See my Image of Maldora bit. FFS some of our local parry whores have parry in the 60's because of Maldora. There are level 50's with less than 900 HP because they choose to parry whore, and are encouraging their lackeys to do the same. And how do they justify this? They say parry is going to be removed, so whore it up! ...F*cking morons.

There is nothing in the Lodagond-3 chest unique to any other map. It’s all randomly generated via the epic items list. (Albiet, there’s a thing or two that shouldn’t be on that list.)

I've seen stab helms in there before. That chest should be just expendables, it takes absolutely no work to get to that chest. On the subject of destroying maps, the loda-4 arti chest basically destroys the keep, among other things.

I suspect that Lodagond will continue to be home of the level 40's and the level 30's who leech of them until we have a larger array of level 40 maps.

You can change this...