Armor of Bravery nerf/rebalance/suggestion thread

[TheOysterHippopotami]

What do you people think of Changing the AoB to something resembling the following: 55% defense, all allies within a certain radius of the wearer receive a % bonus (5-10%?) in attack, magic attack, speed, stamina, and defense. If the AoB wearer is buffing 5 people at one time his defense increases to 60%.

*possibly* allow for the AoB to only subtract 1% exp on death instead of 2%.

Post any other AoB re-balance suggestions.

 

[The Man In Black]

How about you just suggest something for a new armor? I quite like the AoB, as it means I don't really have to pay attention to dying, which I do a lot >_>

 

[Thothie]

It does lead to certain exploits, but we've had it for so long, it's hard to nerf it now. If I were to nerf it, I'd probably rig it to bring death to maybe 10% of the standard penalty (rather than half, as you suggest), or, more likely, have it only work once every few minutes, so you don't go repeatedly into the pit of death to face monsters with dmg multipliers much higher than they probably should be (*cough* Umulak *cough* [/tobefixed]).

Granted, a better way around that sort of thing would be to just have the game clear your XP hits from any monsters you struck once you died, so you at least couldn't *benefit* from dieing repeatedly. Not sure how hard that last one would be though.

 

[The Man In Black]

Painful and mean to the player. Ye'd have to cycle through all monsters and ask if the player has hit them >_> Plus, like I said, really mean to the player.

 

[Thothie]

It would be mean for boss fights on your own par where you expect to die once or twice, tis true (plus, crap like Atholo). Meh, need to do something though. Hrmm...

Dunno if you can ommit it from bosses with the "NPC_IS_BOSS" scriptvar, maybe... Since you're already being penalized for dieing directly to them, at least.

 

[zeus9860]

Post any other AoB re-balance suggestions.

No, i <3 aob like it is. Anyways, you could always start a re-balance suggestion list on the PA, since i dont care about that one lololol

Or there could always be this instead of balancing old stuff:

How about you just suggest something for a new armor?

 

[The Man In Black]

It would be mean for boss fights on your own par where you expect to die once or twice, tis true (plus, crap like Atholo). Meh, need to do something though. Hrmm...

Dunno if you can ommit it from bosses with the "NPC_IS_BOSS" scriptvar, maybe... Since you're already being penalized for dieing directly to them, at least.

Even so, it's still hard on the code having to cycle through EVERY entity.

 

[Thothie]

It would be mean for boss fights on your own par where you expect to die once or twice, tis true (plus, crap like Atholo). Meh, need to do something though. Hrmm...

Dunno if you can ommit it from bosses with the "NPC_IS_BOSS" scriptvar, maybe... Since you're already being penalized for dieing directly to them, at least.

Even so, it's still hard on the code having to cycle through EVERY entity.

Yeah, but it's already doing that. Player does a "callexternal all player_died", when he dies. Makes pets go away, items deactivate, etc.

If we had a script command, say removeplayerxp <player> - we could just add it to the monster externals or shared when that event is called. (Skipping it if NPC_IS_BOSS.) No fuss and no new overhead then.

How about you just suggest something for a new armor?

Zeus has a point though. Do need more suggestions for things to do with armor, tis true. Running out of idears in that department, and most of the new ones coming in are bunk.

 

[jon50559]

Is there anything you can do for magic resistance? If so I think an 'explorer' armor would be cool, with it being fairly light, having ~30% damage and magic resistance, with a little hp buff. Of course this'd be rare

 

[Thothie]

I assume you don't mean the "magic" energy-type, as very few things use that, but magic in general.

Maldora works his magic resistance by being immune to all elemental attacks, and I can't think of another good way to deal with that ATM. Global elemental resistance would have to be extraordinarily low (10% or less) to avoid risking gaining immunity to a specific element simply by stacking with another item, as we hit with PA+fire, and would like to avoid elsewhere, save when it is temporary, or not usually very advantageous (eg. frost bow).

The other option would be to make a separate magical resistance that did not stack with elemental resistance - but just reduced incoming damage, without increasing chance of resistance. Sticky bit there is that there's no way to tell if a fire or poison attack is magical. Maybe could just have it affect DOT (elements flagged _effect), although not sure how intuitive that is. Then we get into this confusing dichotomy of resistance vs. damage reduction. Still... Might be more workable.

 

[FER]

How about armors reducing specific damages instead of the global 50% for all attacks? or why not static values instead of percentages?

 

[Thothie]

Doable, but has to be done at very small numbers (kinda like D&D damage reduction, where even at the strongest levels, it usually isn't more than 5 points, even at epic levels where you regularly take 100pts damage). Tends to make said item very useful or overpowered at low level, but useless at higher levels. Does risk negating damage entirely real easily, if the calc is done after iceshield + gprotection + general armor, etc, as even the strongest attacks are only doing a couple of points damage at that point.

 

[StrikerAY]

Doable, but has to be done at very small numbers (kinda like D&D damage reduction, where even at the strongest levels, it usually isn't more than 5 points, even at epic levels where you regularly take 100pts damage). Tends to make said item very useful or overpowered at low level, but useless at higher levels. Does risk negating damage entirely real easily, if the calc is done after iceshield + gprotection + general armor, etc, as even the strongest attacks are only doing a couple of points damage at that point.

I really like this idea! Just make the armor have less damage % reduction so damage negation only happens at really low levels. Also, these things in D&D typically only work against physical damage (or magic attacks of +2 or lower or some such, ignore that part though) so maybe the damage absorption should only work for blunt/pierce/slashing or just one type of damage period.

 

[FER]

Also if you didnt want people to be easily able to gain immunity with PA+fire helmet dont make the helmet increase its resistance as you train fire.

I mean what will happen when the level cap gets pushed further and players can train fire once again? 100% fire resistance with only the helmet?

Same goes for ice helmet.

 

[Postal]

^ and electric resistance from what I remember.


Or just put a cap for max resistance.

 

[Keldorn]

IIRC, the cap was only going to be pushed to 45.

(Also the experience required just to get to 40 is insane if you aren't doing it at Umulak, which is being fixed.)

With immunity/resistance potions being as common as they are, it's not really a big issue.

Also if you didnt want people to be easily able to gain immunity with PA+fire helmet dont make the helmet increase its resistance as you train fire.

I would just laugh at how crappy the fire helmet would be if it gave under 25% fire resistance.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Also if you didnt want people to be easily able to gain immunity with PA+fire helmet dont make the helmet increase its resistance as you train fire.

Perhaps multiple versions of the fire helm could be made? The current helms everyone has could be nerfed and renamed 'lesser helm of fire resistance' and only give 1x you fire level in resistance. A second and third helm giving 1.5x and 2x resistance. These higher level helms, however, should be placed in high level maps like the_wall, shad palace, and/or lodagond 4. They would also make fantastic loot for any new high level dungeon that is released.

Also, IMO the ring of electrical resistence should change to give a flat number of damage resistance. I'd say, no more than 15-20% max. There should be ice and lightning, etc. rings that have the same effect. A helmet of lightning resistance should be introduced to replace the current ring.

 

[Keldorn]

The nerf of the ring would require extensive monster rebalancing.

...And I still don't see why any of this is necessary.

All it would do is encourage more annoying armor swapping and more potion hoarding.

 

[FER]

I dont say less than 25% but half of anybody with 30 fire, like 30%
Also im not sure if elemental resistance gives a chance to resist that certain element instead if mitigating its damage.

 

[Thothie]

I dont say less than 25% but half of anybody with 30 fire, like 30%

Even at 25% resistance, it'd still give flat immunity to fire when coupled with the PA - just you sacrifice the PA's fire-resurrect ability.

Also im not sure if elemental resistance gives a chance to resist that certain element instead if mitigating its damage.

Elemental resistance, as it is, does both.

At level 60, you'd have 120% fire protection from the fire helm alone, if not for the fact that it caps at 60%. You reach that cap at fire 30 though.

I think, come level 55-60, 100% resistance to a single element when applying any two items would be reasonable, and just assume our last few maps need to be a bit "rainbowed" to compensate, but before then, ya really wanna avoid that, or ya kill all your elemental themed maps and boss monsters.

The Ring of Electrical Resistance caps at 90%, but it assumes there is never going to be another wearable electrical resistance item.

As usual, kinda wandering off topic every which way though.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

At level 60, you'd have 120% fire protection from the fire helm alone, if not for the fact that it caps at 60%. You reach that cap at fire 30 though.

Personally, I would prefer there to be no cap - so long as the current helmets were nerfed (and new, high level resist helms added). I think it is reasonable for a high level player to obtain 100% resistance to an element if he combines some items. However, I would love to see HP restoration abilities for classes. For example, Fire mage or Fire knight classes - Should they manage to obtain more than 100% resistance they should be able to absorb the extra damage into HP. For example, a fire mage has 120% fire resistance. A monster deals 100 fire damage to said mage, causing the mage to gain 20 HP points.
The ability to absorb damage into HP should be a feature limited to classes only, though.

I think, come level 55-60, 100% resistance to a single element when applying any two items would be reasonable, and just assume our last few maps need to be a bit "rainbowed" to compensate, but before then, ya really wanna avoid that, or ya kill all your elemental themed maps and boss monsters.

This isn't necessarily true. If you have, say, a fire themed map geared towards lower level (10-15 perhaps?) then PA shouldn't get in the way of the challenge because people won't have PA yet. By the time they do have PA they will be able to solo the map anyway, and the loot at the end is likely worthless at this point, too.

The Ring of Electrical Resistance caps at 90%, but it assumes there is never going to be another wearable electrical resistance item.

What was the reasoning behind making one and only one electrical resist item? Personally, I would much prefer a resist helmet to a ring. I don't understand why all players should have such high lightning res without it having to force the player to make some sort of choice.
Furthermore, I would like to see fire and ice rings included in the game as it could make more maps more rewarding in the loot department, and without the need for a new model. The only way to have rings like that, though, is to nerf the hell out of them. Otherwise the gameplay would be completely broken.

 

[Thothie]

There's no electrical resist helmet for the same reason there's no cold resist ring. Hit the immunity level far too easily.

Might work out elemental damage reduction rings or helms (or, back on topic, ARMOR) if we can apply that alternate form of protection without too much confusion.

 

[Glorfindel]

obviously right now what we have isn't the best but it's probably the best of the current situation, i held off posting because the issue really is a later game one but since you guys keep posting i'll have to

the armor of bravery does indeed need to be fixed because it simply throws away a defining game mechanic (death). death in other games makes you lose XP, or makes you restart very far away from where you were, or lose the ability to get something again without a lot of work. In MSC, only losing XP is really possible since HL maps are so small and the way the game pans out. if we had a player-based resurrection system with a total party kill resulting in you restarting at edana, and there was no vote system; that'd be a whole nother issue and i'm sure nobody would play and AoB would never even be questioned.

(here's a dissertation [yes I'm using that word incorrectly] on why a death penalty is needed for those of you who have only opinions and no experience in game design philosophy and you probably love Heavy Rain. if you already understand the need then skip ze next paragraph)

in every game in which acquiring abilities or items is the main conquest, you need to have some form of trial and error. not only does it keep the game "alive" longer for people, but it also attempts to mirror real life mechanics which is what people enjoy to see (even if they do not consciously want it. the things most people enjoy for surrealism are actually because they are unexpected in their position or usage. blah blah juxtaposition makes people happy.) however in MSC, when you put on the Armor of Bravery, not only does it completely destroy this mechanic but then proceeds to kick its butt because you end up with things like Umulak. Constantly going into a death zone to train something is completely illogical. I would not get better at using my blunt hammers by attacking something that killed me outright in the next three seconds. I would get better at hammering stuff if I have SURVIVED the fight. Obviously you have to stretch these rules if you're going to have players handling fantasy concepts, but in general you should keep something there to stop them from abusing the "I get better from dying! HIT ME HARDER!" stuff. Even if you justify the AoB by saying "players are resurrected and never die," then...isn't that like being god? Why not just give the players every power they ever wished? Why not play a game where you're not an adventurer, but a malevolent super being? There's a reason why most games who do that are Real Time Strategies (and I don't mean Black and White. I mean RTS in the vein of where you are the "god" of the battlefield and losing is merely your units losing, not you. You can still restart the game without having to do anything to get back to where you were before you started the game in most cases). Because they have to inflict the ability to fail on you. That's why this is a "game." There's the ability to "lose." Obviously, some games take it too far. Demon's Souls for example, or how older version of Dungeons and Dragons had monsters that de-leveled your character. But SOME ELEMENT of loss must be maintained. Status quo. Why do you think so many new players stop playing the game after awhile? Why do you think the entire higher level player base consists of people who are merely too bored to do anything else and are crusty old grognards who can't stand change? God damn.

OKAY DONE WITH THAT. However, the AoB is perfect for MSC because there is simply TOO MUCH to lose at higher levels. Not only that, but there's not much to gain at higher levels either. Whenever MSC gets tons of boons for higher levels (such as the title system or extra magic disciplines like Lanethan suggested, Earth being simply one of them) then the immunity from death can be mucked around with (and still have the higher level players [team whine] accept it). Changing the way XP is gained, changing the stats for each level etc would also affect this.

also I don't get why you guys are discussing resistances, they would hardly change the game. the fact that you resurrect on the spot with phoenix means you should never wear the fire helm (making 100% fire resistance a PENALTY), and you can still die with 100% resistance quite easily.

What was the reasoning behind making one and only one electrical resist item? Personally, I would much prefer a resist helmet to a ring. I don't understand why all players should have such high lightning res without it having to force the player to make some sort of choice.

I don't know if you played years ago, but lightning used to force you to stumble around like an idiot and be completely unable to do anything. It was so annoying that I'm sure there were no complaints about the ring... now that lightning doesn't really do that I'm sure the ring can be nerfed by changing it into a helmet but whatever, a minuscule issue to me.

 

[FER]

What stage is MSC right now? halfway or near endgame?

 

[Thothie]

40-45 of 60? (Which is also just about where the betamap stands as well.)

I'll have to get MiB to make the code, as I don't have much experience with the nuances of the monster-hit recording system, but I suspect the remove all XP records on death, save for with bosses, is likely the easiest way to go with the AoB. Ya still get off scott-free for death in most cases, but at least you won't benefit from it.