Suggestion about skills

[ReBoot]

Recently, I read something about a game called Darkstone and there was an interesting point:
as MS, Darkstone uses a "learning by doing" system, but with a twist: the skills have a kind of equilibrium to eachother. That means that if you train a skill, the opposing skill will go down. I am sure that such an addition will make MS more interesting by actually introducing some variety instead of having 8 of 10 people I meet to be generalists. Of course, that would require a balance change to allow specialists to survive, but that will surely be worth it!

 

[PBarnum]

I agree that it would make this game interesting and more skill oriented but disagree greatly with the idea and its logic. When you learn a skill, it is not so easily forgotten (like riding a bike) so why should it in MS:C

 

[ReBoot]

To make the game more interesting. When u die riding a bike, you don't return alive. But you do in MS. Why? To make the game interesting. Also, it is possible to forget things: I was learning maths for my exam and doing that, I forgot loads of chemistry stuff I learned half a year ago.

 

[PBarnum]

body movement, reaction, reflexes. Not memorization.

In any case, I would not want to see this idea in the game. Not a bad concept if introduced at the beginning, but adding it in now after years of this system. :?

 

[Tirex]

Better make it another way, lets say that you want to be an assassin, so you will have to learn swordsmanship and small arms.
Once you became an assassin you will get a bonus, for instance: +15% swordsmanship and small arms learning speed, however you will get a penalty on most other skills, for instance -10% learning speed.
However this will require a major remake of the skill system and in this way you will be a master of a few skills instead of everything.

 

[HumanSteak]

Suggested stuff like Tirex did countless times but Thothie likes the Jack-of-all-trades concept...sigh I fully agree with you tirex.

 

[The Man In Black]

Perhaps this shouldn't work for physical skills, then. Maybe it could work to balance magic (once there are more element types). I think that that would make it harder to level magic, eh?

 

[ReBoot]

Magic IS already hard to level. Compare the amount of, let's say spiders you need to kill to get from SC 8 to SC 10 to the amount it takes to level, let's say, swords from 8 to 10. Much less! It is even easier to level parade than magic! Still, physical skills are not that illogical: to use a small arm wisely, you need to be quick. To use a blunt arm wisely, you needn't to be quick, you need strength.

 

[megatracker]

I say keep it like it is! i mean this way i can cast spells and use armor/weapons without penalties [unlike D&D]

 

[Tentadrilus]

Well, it's an interesting idea. So you're suggesting that if you train the sword skill (I can't remember any of the skill names, reinstalling MS:C means downloading everything again), your blunt skill would decrease. Those are the only two skills I think that contradict eachother.

 

[ReBoot]

I suggest that any skill is connected to any skill. Some more similar, some more opposite.

 

[Thor-Stryker]

Thinking about it, the best way to maintain the ability to learn skills but to have people actually specialize is to allow only the two highest skills to contribute to your health/mana/abilities. (Not including subskills.)

So for instance, you could have

Swordsmanship - 15
Small Arms - 16
Spell Casting - 18

And you'll only gain the health/mana benefits from small arms and spell casting. In addition, you can't use any abilities swordsmanship gives.
This would greatly reduce the amount of health each player has, which requires a re-balancing around the new values, but also makes it more controlled. So people don't have to level every freaking skill and be a stats whore.

Let people specialize without having to generalize just to be on par with everyone else.

 

[WeissberV]

Thinking about it, the best way to maintain the ability to learn skills but to have people actually specialize is to allow only the two highest skills to contribute to your health/mana/abilities. (Not including subskills.)

So for instance, you could have

Swordsmanship - 15
Small Arms - 16
Spell Casting - 18

And you'll only gain the health/mana benefits from small arms and spell casting. In addition, you can't use any abilities swordsmanship gives.
This would greatly reduce the amount of health each player has, which requires a re-balancing around the new values, but also makes it more controlled. So people don't have to level every freaking skill and be a stats whore.

Let people specialize without having to generalize just to be on par with everyone else.

i like it

 

[RayonMazter]

I enjoy the current system. It makes working on other skills not absolutely pointless like most other 'jack of all trade' rpgs.

I think it should be left the way it is, and time should be spent on other fixes/additions that don't dramatically change the game.

 

[Thor-Stryker]

But its not a very attractive system, what if I don't wanna have to pratice Martial just to get the Health and Endurance benefiet? This came forces you to, and it drives people away because they don't want to spend the time leveling up every single skill in order to be able to progress forward in the game.

The biggest issue with doing this is rebalancing the damage dealt, and health amounts of monsters and players. All it takes is a little math and a little testing. and since the devs seem to have a good grasp of the HL1 eninge, I dont think they will have much problem altering it if they wanted to.

 

[evilsquirrel]

and what about when you train daggers after blunt and LOSE health? what then?

because that just doesn't make sense...

i trained, therefore, i am weaker.

 

[WeissberV]

and what about when you train daggers after blunt and LOSE health? what then?

because that just doesn't make sense...

i trained, therefore, i am weaker.

yes but then u'd be quicker at attacking and higher evasion

 

[evilsquirrel]

yes but i think you're missing the point...

go work out a bunch, now - learn to cook, have you suddenly become weaker?

 

[WeissberV]

yes but i think you're missing the point...

go work out a bunch, now - learn to cook, have you suddenly become weaker?

hmm maybe u could have the skills but it wouldn't be as effective as the top 2 skill u have

*thinks for more things to say*

 

[The Man In Black]

That really doesn't make sense, and makes me wonder why you would WANT that system anyway. Maybe if having high skills provided some other benefit (like you said, when small arms are higher you're faster, and things along that line), it would be worth it, but it still wouldn't make sense.

Something realistic, interesting, and "balancing" would be to have skills detiriorate over time, much like Player Kills. If you spend time working on some skill other than your sword skills, such as dagger skills, you would begin to get out of practice with the sword. Detirioration would most likely be a percent every (insert skill level) minutes, or something like that (probably more time, though. Maybe something more like level * 2 minutes).

 

[Thor-Stryker]

yes but i think you're missing the point...

go work out a bunch, now - learn to cook, have you suddenly become weaker?

Hey you just proved my point. Thanks. How would one have time to learn 9 different skills and be a master of them all?

Please, show me how one can become a spell caster who knows how to swing hammers perfectly and daggers and bows and swords. You won't ever find one, not even in the fantasy worlds. People are usually good at a few skills. People who are jack of all trades usually aren't good at any one thing.

This game rewards people for not being good at any one thing, which takes the point out of having multiple skills, you might as well just give a "hit" button. As thats all your doing when everything contributes to your abilities and health.


The reason why the system is designed like that is because it encourages team work. For certain creates, bosses, and other mobs you may need a type of skill in order to defeat. Weather it be fire resistant or takes more damage with blunt. Your character will have to rely on others in order to effectively take him down.

The game promotes stat whoring, where people amass multiple stats in order to gain ability and health bonuses. You become no more unique than anyone else when this happens.

 

[The Man In Black]

No.. What he said didn't make your point. That made no sense at all. Maybe what *I* said helped your point, but still not quite. You can learn MANY different styles of combat. When you start learning how to use daggers, you may find you like them more. When you completely master the art of small arms, you have not become significantly weaker.

I know you're trying to balance the game, in a way, but it doesn't make sense and no one is going to go along with a suggestion that makes them weaker for getting one stat higher than another.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

The game promotes stat whoring, where people amass multiple stats in order to gain ability and health bonuses. You become no more unique than anyone else when this happens.

Stat whoring is awesome. I love to train all my skills so I can walk around with 779 HP. Awesome.

 

[Thor-Stryker]

In truth you do become weaker when your start practicing with other weapons. Your muscle decays and you require retraining in order to be able to come back to the level you were with your first weapon, even more so if you achieve supreme levels of concentration within that style.

If you've ever wielded a claymore, then a knife. You'd understand that a knife requires a lot less strength and dexterity to use effectively. Its like sports, most people don't cross-train because they won't be as good in the second sport. The same reason why you don't see tiger woods as a famous football player.

As for stat whoring, people do like that style of game play, but it allows other players who prefer not to have to punch, spell cast, swing daggers and the rest of the lot just to be able to quest or pvp.

But back to becoming the jack of all trades, I know this from personal experience in the army. The army trains soldiers in a broad spectrum of subjects, but no soldier is going to be good in everything, because its nearly impossible to do. Your not going to have a black hawk pilot sniper medic mechanic guy. He'll most likely just be a pilot who learned to turn a few wrenches, or in the biggest case, a medic whos retrained as a sniper.

 

[FER]

Have you ever heard about "Freelancer" class from FF4. Good at everything