[REL]The_wall

[Skillasaur]

Re: [WIP]The_wall

I think you've got my most recent version Thothie. I'll try to get back into the mapping frame of mind though. I'm terrible at finishing projects -_-

 

[HumanSteak]

Re: [WIP]The_wall

Reviving this thread to say stuff about the_wall...
There's gotta be something done about this map because... :|
I'm not whining/complaining, I know this map couldn't be tested with many people for obvious reasons so I'm just sharing my point of view mmk?

1: Level 40+map, (should be 50+ really) our characters are capped at 40 and we have to beat it with level 20 weapons, except neckhunter and blood drinker. The reward? Level 30 weapons...

2: The elves have no weakness at all. I do 6.9 with poison cloud, 13.9 with lightning storm, they have a very high resistance to ice and fire. Our rainbow inventory is just useless against them. The only things that work so far are stuns (just try to stun a crossbow whore while he targets you...) and dragon axe push (useless) Even most of the map's rewards are completly useless against them.

3: Pushes, knockbacks and flight are just too much to handle. Sure I can accept being killed in two hits but at the very least, not both insane damage AND the impossibility to have any form of control. I know, potion of leadfoot. I've yet to see one, unless potions of stability were supposed to be renamed so. And I don't feel like beating a whole map to get one of these and lose it's effect because I still got raped.

4: Even with my full 943 hp, shielded, when I get stunned, I KNOW I'm gonna die. Hard stuns lasting this long are just... gah...

5: Everything is insane on this map. Damages, stuns, difficulty, lack of control, sometimes lag. But exp is, I'm sorry to say, the crappiest difficulty/time/damage ratio ever. Hell I even calculated to see and I get 7 exp per hit on some mobs with a bludgeon hammer's first charge at blunt 37. Foutpost still has a much MUCH better ratio. Why not give insane exp to an insanely hard map? Or just adjust the difficulty accordingly to have something we can enjoy playing, that will not die as soon as everyone's got their loot.

For that matter, I'd suggest halving all hp while keeping the damages and exp the same because I love a good challenge. Yea dying fast is fun, so is getting uber raped, it might even be funny, if at least, you don't have to hit the same enemy for 3 minutes to kill it while it kills you in 3-4 hits (And that is when you actually manage to isolate one from their group). In other words, die fast and kill fast=fun. Die fast and kill slow is just boring.

On a side note, buff potions should be buyable. Not like after beating old_helena or having to reload a town 10 times to get one of those you needed but really, I don't see the inconvenience of making buff potions buyable from magic stuff merchants in good quantity.

P.S. Ancient Ice Djinns = 375 exp.
P.S.(2) If still you want to limit the possible exp gains I'll understand but if it's not the case, just pointing it out.

One more time, nothing in this post should be considered as whining or bitching, I'm just sharing my opinion and hoping that it is taken into consideration. Thank you.

 

[Skillasaur]

Topic updated to reflect released status of map.

I personally have not had chance to play it, and thus cannot comment on balance issues, but if this is anything like other map in MS:C I'm betting there will be quite a lot of balance changes yet to come.

 

[HumanSteak]

Yeah the map couldn't be tested in multiplayer, that's probably the only reason why it's so unbalanced, in case you didn't read my post. Sorry to post this in your thread but I didn't know where else I could have posted this.

 

[Dridmar]

Yeah the map couldn't be tested in multiplayer, that's probably the only reason why it's so unbalanced, in case you didn't read my post. Sorry to post this in your thread but I didn't know where else I could have posted this.

Thoth plans to have a 'The Wall/Umulak' test session soon. Don't worry Steak, everything will balanced out.

 

[Thothie]

Was hoping for a map those under 40 would actually have a hard time beating, but thus far, every time it's come up on my server, the level 35's have still managed to beat it out in short order. Not challenging enough, apparently.

Regards to some other stuff:
- Ancient Ice Djinn's are just renamed ice trolls.
- There are no weapons with min requirements over 30.
- Torkies, depending on type, have between 25% and 50% armor (+5 chain mail bikini), and 25% flat resistance to all major elements. They've no weaknesses, but are less protected against non-magical weaponry, and have no stun resistance. They've a higher base XP value than any minion in the game.
- Map is designed to be neigh impossible without reliable escort. Don't even try to solo it.

Hoping to work out some fixes for the wall and get Umulak tested sometime today... We'll see how long it takes me to get something together.

Meanwhile...

Take your frustrations out on her.

 

[Thothie]

PS. Don't blame Skilla for monster layout, he only provided brushwork. Don't blame him for cheesy music either, or even for any of the crazy-lit hallways and stairs of brush work from beyond The Cold One to the end, all of which I tacked on.

 

[Keldorn]

Level 35s have beaten the map?

Wow, I thought that me and Zeus were the only ones who actually completed the entire map without it crashing or bugging at the end, and we've only done it successfully 3 times total on FN.

Each run took 2-3 hours, and a large amount of potions, though.

 

[Thothie]

Last time it ran through, it only took two level 35's to finish it in under an hour. Albiet, Forsuth didn't make it out alive (think he died on the spiral, judging by the chat and trigger log)... I've not spotted Forsuth getting stuck on my servers yet - but I don't think I've seen him live to the end either.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

If Forsuth dies, you can't really say people beat the map, now can you
The rewards Velend gives for Ihotohr's head are exceptional, don't get me wrong, but what people really care about is what Forsuth gives.

 

[Thothie]

Well, I didn't expect anyone under 40'ish to even be able to get through the map in a practical fashion, nevermind a pair of 35's. Most of what stops getting Forsuth through the map seems to bugs, rather than difficulty, however - kinda intended him as a bonus prize, but wasn't expecting so many issues with him.

I was pretty impressed with how smoothly he worked in the SP tests - only real issue I had with him was getting him up the damned stairs... Anyways, working on those other bits now...

Wish I could come up with a way to get him up that spiral easier... Tis one of the reasons we need navigation nodes - but I know how horribly complex it would be to create and implement them.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Wish I could come up with a way to get him up that spiral easier... Tis one of the reasons we need navigation nodes - but I know how horribly complex it would be to create and implement them.

Make the diameter of the spiral staircase twice as big...?

 

[Thothie]

Can't... I've hit every conceivable limit with this map. Bugger's harder to make compile than Shad Palace.

'sides, don't think it'll help all that much... Main issue is he follows the lips of the stairs and backtracks... Then can't figure how to get back to you when he winds up directly below you. Series of monster clip ramps might help, but same issue as above.

 

[Skillasaur]

In my experience NPCs have trouble navigateing complex curved corridors. Since a spiral staircase is essentially one big curve with the added complexity of variable height it might be worth trying to monster clip out the central pillar, making it essentially just a box instead of a curve the npc navigates around. I'm not sure it would help, but might be worth a try.

Gotta hate hammer limits. I'm suprised you know so many tricks to get past them

 

[HumanSteak]

In fact I managed to make it to Ibithor or something solo without any potions and I could do it again. There are just certain parts that are impossible to beat even in a group of high levels, without demon blood. But for some parts, I can say without hesitation that we just need demon blood, whether we're in a team or solo.

 

[Thothie]

In fact I managed to make it to Ibithor or something solo without any potions and I could do it again.

H4X! Meh... I just can't find a way to make a dungeon hard it seems. Couldn't do it with my level 40 test char, I know that much, lest I wanted to take a week to pull out every elf one at a time - even then, no clue how I'd get past Ihotor. *sigh* I tried...

In my experience NPCs have trouble navigateing complex curved corridors. Since a spiral staircase is essentially one big curve with the added complexity of variable height it might be worth trying to monster clip out the central pillar, making it essentially just a box instead of a curve the npc navigates around. I'm not sure it would help, but might be worth a try.

A straight staircase that tall would take up far too much room I'm afraid, at 16 units per step - not so much the hammer limit, as getting it to go where I want... A series of straight stair cases might work, and would have been easier for him, tis true - but I bet he'd still run down from time to time, just not more than a flight... Be a lot of work to turn that spiral into a series of straight flights - also not sure if the map would handle it. :\

Monsters do handle rounded corners better than 90 degree ones though, oddly enough - but steps coming in at non-90 degree angles, not so much so.

Gotta hate hammer limits. I'm suprised you know so many tricks to get past them

Tis true... There's a lot of unnecessary, but pretty bits, I could probably eliminate... Gotta little carried away with aesthetics on my half of the map - the Frost Caverns entrance and the various debris filled corridors could go or be replaced with models like the ones used for The Bleak entrance... The hallways could likely be simplified, but doing that last bit would likely mean rebuilding that half of the map from scratch. >< Think I just underestimated how much I was going to add to the map to make it wrap back around when I made the basic hallway structure, so I blame more sloppy planning on my part than Hammer.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

A straight staircase that tall would take up far too much room I'm afraid, at 16 units per step - not so much the hammer limit, as getting it to go where I want... A series of straight stair cases might work, and would have been easier for him, tis true - but I bet he'd still run down from time to time, just not more than a flight... Be a lot of work to turn that spiral into a series of straight flights - also not sure if the map would handle it. :\

That's not what he means. What he said, was: enclose the central cylinder with a beam-shaped func_monsterclip. That way, Forsuth bumps into a "simpler" object (a beam rather than a cylinder) which might cause him to navigate easier.

 

[Thothie]

That'd make it worse for him (never mind the map limits)... The cylinder in the middle is the easy part for him - it actually works in his favor, as he can turn with it. A box would stop him cold, causing him to 180 looking for a way around it, or freeze in place when the corner of his own bounding box caught the edge of the monsterclip's box (like the Iron Guardian did back when his boss chamber had square brushes around the pillars). The one on the outside isn't a factor at all... What's fuxing him, is the angled steps, as if he hits them at an angle, he follows them looking for a way around, when he fails to find one, he goes back down. He only goes over them if he hits them near dead on.

Like I said, rounded corners are easier for monsters than 90 degree angled ones. It's off-angled steps that fux with them more.

A series of flights of stairs with a cylinder in the middle of them or rounded turns at each landing would likely be the best solution, but again, lot of work, and might be harder on the limits than the one spiral.

 

[FER]

H4X! Meh... I just can't find a way to make a dungeon hard it seems. Couldn't do it with my level 40 test char, I know that much -

I think making a map hard (rather, abusing stun+knockback) doesnt stop players from spawning as many time as they want, just got to avoid being killed by a boss.

lest I wanted to take a week to pull out every elf one at a time

He obviously didnt mentioned the tediously long time it took him to do that.

even then, no clue how I'd get past Ihotor. *sigh* I tried...

In fact I managed to make it to Ibithor or something solo without any potions

I can say without hesitation that we just need demon blood, whether we're in a team or solo.

 

[Thothie]

Last two statements seem a bit conflicting. (Not that I don't already have to assume level 40 chars would have access to multiple doses of demon blood.)

Anyways, I meant to talk to you regarding this map... I wanted to strip the entity count some by removing all the sprites from the torches (which I just did actually)... If the torch model was modded to have a flame in it, that might look less odd.

Torch model is models\props\torch_med.mdl

I was thinking of taking some waving flag model, putting an additive flame texture on it, and sticking it in there somehow.

Be useful if it had a second skin where the flame didn't render - could then have both on and off variants of torches through env_model without it looking odd. I can likely arrange that myself, if you want to save the work - it's getting a moving flame in there to begin with that'd take me too long to figure.

Could also strip the flame from the candle in the same folder, but I dun think it'd look as good in the torch, even scaled to fit.

 

[FER]

Or have skin groups with frames of the flame sprite?

EDIT: I could manage to try some flame animation, but I need a good fire texture, if you could supply it to me.

EDIT2: might aswell make model based versions of every brush based lamps (even those odd ones), but I'll have to get the wads used on them first.

 

[Thothie]

Or have skin groups with frames of the flame sprite?

Can't do it that way, unless you know some way to make the skin group automate on its own. It's an env_model - it'd have to be scripted to make the skin change, and that'd make it eat a lot more resources, defeating the point. :/

EDIT: I could manage to try some flame animation, but I need a good fire texture, if you could supply it to me.

Eh... I'll see what I can find - there's a few in the wads and sprites though. Ya might need Wally or Sprite Explorer to get em out.

EDIT2: might aswell make model based versions of every brush based lamps (even those odd ones), but I'll have to get the wads used on them first.

*Generally* brush based ones eat less resources than model based ones, so I dun think that'd be required. In this case, the original brush was malformed and causing issues with compile, and it tweren't very pretty either, so I opted for the model, rather than buildin' me own brush.

("buildin' me own brush", gods I've been working on Forsuth too much...)

 

[FER]

Then opt for this

I could manage to try some flame animation, but I need a good fire texture, if you could supply it to me.

 

[Thothie]

Sry, premature postin - see above.

 

[Thothie]

Here's a rar: http://www.thothie.com/msc_dev3/flamerz.rar - more flamers than frisco - some animated, some not, few silly...

I know I had a model where they did this specific trick somewhere, and it'd be good to use the texture there from, but I canna remember where it be.