The Q and A Thread

Thothie

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TheOysterHippopotami said:
Regardless, a map that isn't going to be in the game is worth nadda, set next to one that is.
I'm not arguing over your judging criteria. I couldn't care less about that. I'm just pointing out that this policy you have towards releasing content is why this game isn't fun and has a player base bordering on the single digits.
You mean my policy of actually releasing content, as opposed to not releasing content?

Releasable content > Unreleasable content, period.

That's been the policy since forever, so I somehow dun think it's the problem.

Also copypasta, since it got bumped off before anyone was likely to read it:
Thothie said:

Red Cell has apparently informed me that I'm on the judges panel. (Damnitall...)

For maps, there's one major thing to take into account:
I favor maps that require the least amount of work on my behalf, regardless of aesthetics.

Rickler level maps are all well and good, but I'll take a crappy looking map that might actually see the light of day, over a dozen dazzling empty masterpieces, any day of the week. (Not that Rickler ever submitted an empty map.)

• For a map to be judged, I will need from ye an archive (rar/zip/7z) containing:
- Das Sauce (RMF)
- Das BSP (if ye've gotten that far)
- If you are not using -wadinclude in compile, I will also need: Das Wads
- Any media used by the map (music, sound, models) in the appropriate folders.
- Any unique scripts you have made for the map.
- (File space to upload can be provided, though I personally recommend Mega.)

Taking all that into account:
Those of you who have already declared entries have until Valentine's day (PST) to supply final sources.

I'm personally willing to take new late submissions until then, but Red Cell might poo-poo on that.

• For a model to be judged, I will need from ye an archive containing:
- Das SMDs
- Das Textures
- Das QC
- Bonus points for also supplying compiled MDL and Milk Shape importable source files. (Basically just about any non-proprietary format.)
- (File space to upload can be provided, though I personally recommend Mega.)

• For Music/Videos/Concept Art
- If I can see, hear, and/or play it, we're good to go!
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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You mean my policy of actually releasing content, as opposed to not releasing content?
Yeah, actually. Your policy of consistently releasing really bad content has hurt this game in the long run more than the months and years we've gone without any patches.

Releasable content > Unreleasable content, period.
I think by "unreleasable content" you actually mean "content that I don't think is important/don't want to work on". Nothing posted in this contest is unreleasable by any means.
 

Thothie

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TheOysterHippopotami said:
You mean my policy of actually releasing content, as opposed to not releasing content?
Yeah, actually. You policy of consistently releasing really bad content has hurt this game in the long run more than the months and years we've gone without any patches.

Releasable content > Unreleasable content, period.
I think by "unreleasable content" you actually mean "content that I don't think is important/don't want to work on". Nothing posted in this contest is unreleasable by any means.
I've always released whatever was ready first - I dun usually much judge what's important or not when developing (save when the game breaks entirely), only what's ready, and/or what can be made so first. That's always been the case, and was so well before I got here. If it's suddenly a problem, what's the alternative? Backburner everything that's ready to go, and put patch releases off for several more years in hopes that somehow it'll be better?

Sadly, what's important to me, never seems to be ready, so I'm not left with much choice in that regard.
 

zeus9860

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lore map = should be attractive visually by default (if possible by the mapper), decent background music that goes with the map's theme, places to explore, conversations to have when possible, quests to do, secrets to find, etc. BASICALLY overall decent/good content.

non-lore map = shouldn't really consume alot of one's time, unless they really want to dedicate time into something that might just get trashed when it's released. I'm ok with these maps being attractive visually, as long as they are tied with the lore somehow, and don't end up like random stuff added into the game. BASICALLY worthwhile content or somehow decent, it shouldn't top lore content.

Back in the days, when i started playing. The visual quality of the maps were of little importance to me, unless it's a map that doesn't force the player to spawn, rush to end and loot chests. The good moments of this mod are all in those times when you start exploring lands such as sfor, thornlands and the likes. I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times over the years, so it's not refreshing to me anymore with overplayed content.

It's like i say, if you really want to make pretty maps, work on lore maps specially. Help the mod progress, stop adding more content into the game that will turn into "beat the sh!t out of that piñata boss and +use rape the chests". That crap got old long ago and needs a new approach. And with this i mean, the formula currently being used to deliver content across maps needs to be re-evaluated.

For everybody's sake, i do hope tier 40+ items are all obtained through forging or questing, maybe with an exception or two. More loot chests delivering gear will completly kill the mood of returning into this mod when and if the mod gets that far in development.

New mappers should work in their maps, and they should be non lore at start, to get the hang of things. I don't expect unexperienced people to simply jump in and work on something that is written down on a stone. It might scare them away too early. For example, new mappers should do 2-3 maps to get the hang of things, if they feel comfortable into taking a bigger step, they should aim towards lore maps. That's what this mod really needs, some lore progress.
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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I am beginning to think -YOU-, Thothie, are the reason the mod is dead. You clearly do not care or have passion for the mod, like many people who produce content for it do. The only reason people still play it is because of the aesthetics. Because it's half life, and has pretty maps. Because it has love and passion put into it. That is why the mod is remotely kicking today. Your attitude is seriously shite. It's almost tyrannical. We need someone else who can put out patches of their own. If good maps never get in game, then why would people ever bother producing content for the game if you'll shoot it down -because- it requires "too much work on my behalf".... it's disgusting and grimy. This mod has no hope with that attitude of yours. I am obviously giving my opinion, but I know many others share this with me in that you are ass backwards with your priorities. You have it wrong, Thothie. You need to listen to your community. You need to be fair.
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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zeus9860 said:
lore map = should be attractive visually by default (if possible by the mapper), decent background music that goes with the map's theme, places to explore, conversations to have when possible, quests to do, secrets to find, etc. BASICALLY overall decent/good content.

non-lore map = shouldn't really consume alot of one's time, unless they really want to dedicate time into something that might just get trashed when it's released. I'm ok with these maps being attractive visually, as long as they are tied with the lore somehow, and don't end up like random stuff added into the game. BASICALLY worthwhile content or somehow decent, it shouldn't top lore content.

Back in the days, when i started playing. The visual quality of the maps were of little importance to me, unless it's a map that doesn't force the player to spawn, rush to end and loot chests. The good moments of this mod are all in those times when you start exploring lands such as sfor, thornlands and the likes. I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times over the years, so it's not refreshing to me anymore with overplayed content.

It's like i say, if you really want to make pretty maps, work on lore maps specially. Help the mod progress, stop adding more content into the game that will turn into "beat the sh!t out of that piñata boss and +use rape the chests". That crap got old long ago and needs a new approach. And with this i mean, the formula currently being used to deliver content across maps needs to be re-evaluated.

For everybody's sake, i do hope tier 40+ items are all obtained through forging or questing, maybe with an exception or two. More loot chests delivering gear will completly kill the mood of returning into this mod when and if the mod gets that far in development.

New mappers should work in their maps, and they should be non lore at start, to get the hang of things. I don't expect unexperienced people to simply jump in and work on something that is written down on a stone. It might scare them away too early. For example, new mappers should do 2-3 maps to get the hang of things, if they feel comfortable into taking a bigger step, they should aim towards lore maps. That's what this mod really needs, some lore progress.
Great post. I agree with almost everything you said here. I just wanna emphasize this part of it:

The good moments of this mod are all in those times when you start exploring lands such as sfor, thornlands and the likes. I've done this hundreds, if not thousands of times over the years, so it's not refreshing to me anymore with overplayed content.
I would want nothing more than to produce some high level content that feels like the early game. My maps actually have to get released for that to be possible, though. :wink:
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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What Oyster said, in fact Oyster's map has a forge in it and had been planning most of those things! (SPOILERS :oldshock: )

Anyways, Thothie, you need to get your head out of the sand and listen to the people. What you want really shouldn't matter, as a lead developer of a rapidly dying community- YOU need to be the one who gets everything released. We understand that, we totally know that this is a lot of pressure on you. Content gets built up, and bottlenecked at you. That's fine that you want to get things released in game, but you need to understand how much work the mappers have done too. If they could do anything map side I am certain they would, to get it released earlier. Some times that just isn't possible though. You can totally release maps that are done right away, but why would that prevent you from ever releasing maps that need work done? Why would that prevent you from getting the bare minimum in that map, and adding content later? You are doing everyone and injustice, including yourself.
 

MS:C community

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I've got to agree with zeus here. If a novice mapper feels the need to release an abysmal map, it had better not be a lore map, really.
 

Thothie

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Blah, the crack you people are on.

Doesn't matter how pretty the map is, if it'll never see the light of day.

It may has well not exist.

It isn't an MSC map.

At best, it's concept art.



Mind you, I do have my limits... Someone, who shall not be named, and is fully capable of doing better, gave me a Hall of Deralia, made up of nothing but 512 boxes that looked like it came out of Minecraft - except blockier. I poo-poo'd that submission to the world, but I'd have to drop a bunch of sh*t to make that happen anyways. I dun require a lore map to be the most impressive thing ever (think that's why people are too intimidated to work on them), but they at least need to be in the ballpark of our average map.

Also mind you, I haven't looked at any of these maps yet, so I dunno what hypothetical gorgeous empty map you guys maybe mourning for... But suffice to say, the closer the map is to ready to go, the better its chances - but, at the same time, looking like ass isn't going to help it any.
 

Thothie

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Lucifer Majiskus said:
Why wouldn't a good looking map make it in-game?
It's not that a map won't make it into the game on the basis that it looks good.

It's that a map won't make it into the game on the basis that it is dependant on people other than its author to be completed. People who don't exist.

Cuz, in case you haven't noticed by the increasing delay between patches, I've not had as much time for MSC as I once did.

If I have to populate it, and the mapper is making special scripting demands for it to be released on top of that, it ain't gonna happen, so long as there's no one but me to script them, and there's something I can get done sooner.

The less a map depends on me to finish it, the better.

Lucifer Majiskus said:
What did you mean by this? What map are you referring to?
I dunno, "a map", any map, that isn't ready to be released as is, setup against one that is.

For example? Well... Maybe msc_shrinkspell... How long has Shrinkspell been on hold?

Answer: Since 2006.

Beautiful map, for which we have the source, and the brushwork is entirely complete. Only downside? Months of scripting and modeling to complete. So, as long as there's something else to do, and no one else to do it, it's gonna be on hold forever.
 

Regorty

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Lucifer Majiskus said:
Why wouldn't a good looking map make it in-game?

Thothie said:
It isn't an MSC map.

At best, it's concept art.
What did you mean by this? What map are you referring to?
My temple map series! I made screenshots of it, but they haven't been released yet. :D
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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I totally understand that, and I agree that people shouldn't demand custom shit for their maps. I do think that you could possibly have it worked on and released in a further patch, after the map has been released- though. If a map requires NPC's, it's a matter of copy-pasting text in there. I, myself, plan to write all the dialogue for every NPC in underkeep if necessary. It makes sense that you want what's done to put in-game, totally. I can't imagine you have a lot to work on in terms of MS:C, though. Regorty's maps are essentially done to my knowledge (Not counting his ruins series). Underkeep is done on the mapping side, all it needs to have is NPC's (whose dialogue I will write in full). Any special scripts could come in later patches.
 

Thothie

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Again, I've not really looked at either map yet (not even got a source from Reg yet)... I'm guessing which ever map you are routing for is less ready to go, thus your ire.

If all ya need is NPCs that jabber, ya got until Valentine's to add them. Hopefully someone can figure that out for you, and I'm always available for scripting questions (but gods know ya'll have way more information to work with than I did when I started).

If the map doesn't require these NPCs to be released, then it isn't something that's going to be held against it anyways.
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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Again, I've not really looked at either map yet (not even got a source from Reg yet)...
Regorty is under the impression he sent you the source over a month ago...

I'm guessing which ever map you are routing for is less ready to go, thus your ire.
Pretty sure his ire is coming from your posts which suggest an unwillingness to work on and release Underkeep ever, not that it isn't gonna win this years contest.

If all ya need is NPCs that jabber, ya got until Valentine's to add them. Hopefully someone can figure that out for you, and I'm always available for scripting questions
Sadly it isn't quite that ready. It still needs things that only you can do, such as merchant NPC's or forge items, since we mappers aren't allowed to determine our own loot. It needs questing NPC's of some variety as well, but luckily there's virtually no need for monsters, bosses or fancy triggers like most maps require.

With that said, I've been meaning to complain about this Valentines extension. Since Fmines is one of the maps being released next patch, I take it this means the patch has to be put off until after Valentines day?
 

Thothie

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TheOysterHippopotami said:
Again, I've not really looked at either map yet (not even got a source from Reg yet)...
Regorty is under the impression he sent you the source over a month ago...
I've got a few sources from him in ages past, but I dun recognize which one it might be from his pictures, and he didn't give it a name for me to search my archives with, so... Yeah, he'd better do something about that.

Unless it is fmines?... Is it fmines? :\ *squints* Canna tell... So dark...

TheOysterHippopotami said:
Pretty sure his ire is coming from your posts which suggest an unwillingness to work on and release Underkeep ever, not that it isn't gonna win this years contest.
Never said any such thing. Just sayin, for releases, first ready, first served (or dished, in this case).

TheOysterHippopotami said:
If all ya need is NPCs that jabber, ya got until Valentine's to add them. Hopefully someone can figure that out for you, and I'm always available for scripting questions
Sadly it isn't quite that ready. It still needs things that only you can do, such as merchant NPC's or forge items, since we mappers aren't allowed to determine our own loot. It needs questing NPC's of some variety as well, but luckily there's virtually no need for monsters, bosses or fancy triggers like most maps require.
I can populate chests in a jiffy, so I wouldn't hold that against a map. Indeed, bonus points for placeholder chests. If you require custom items or quests to release your map, then it'll have to wait until I'm done with anything else that'll take less time to get in game (thus it's a matter of the item's or quest's complexity). Plenty of placeholder quest items available though, and plenty of example quest NPC's to work with - so massive bonus points, if something is already in place.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
With that said, I've been meaning to complain about this Valentines extension. Since Fmines is one of the maps being released next patch, I take it this means the patch has to be put off until after Valentines day?
Patch delay is unrelated... I'm waiting to hear back from MiB regarding some code side issues. It's convenient for the contest though, as I'll be tied up most of next week due to RL Valentine's day related events (hopefully not literally) and back early Valentine's day, cuz a certain alien's gotta work that day.
 

Thothie

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Just a reminder that ya'll got one more week to spruce up your maps with scripts and placeholders for better odds, or to submit late ones.

Also, I think Red Cell would like me to preemptively remind ya'll that extensions to deadlines will not be the norm next time - but hopefully we'll also squeal about the contest more often.

I'm *guessing* fmines is Reg's submission - which is kinda cheatin, considering it's already in the alpha - and a shame, given how many other prettier WIP maps I know ya've got, but it's good to go, so it's certainly a valid contender.

Seems MiB has THE PLAGUE, so the patch maybe delayed that long as well. :\
 

Regorty

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Thothie said:
I'm *guessing* fmines is Reg's submission - which is kinda cheatin, considering it's already in the alpha - and a shame, given how many other prettier WIP maps I know ya've got, but it's good to go, so it's certainly a valid contender.

Seems MiB has THE PLAGUE, so the patch maybe delayed that long as well. :\
Fmines was the only map that I started within the contest timeline requirements, all my other maps have been working on since 2013... wow. Saying that made me feel depressed somehow. :(

Thanks for accepting my map! I know it sucks, but I'm sure it will be good enough. :)

Also I should hug MiB until he feels better!
 

Thothie

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Regorty said:
Fmines was the only map that I started within the contest timeline requirements,
I dun think there's any rule that says you have to have started on the project within the contest bounds - just that you finish... Could have started in 2000, SFAIK.

Also...
Regorty said:
I found out that apparently the contest maps weren't solely constrained to the plains of Daragoth.
Who planted this idea in your innocent little head? What's wrong with Daragoth now, that we're looking for a replacement? :\
 

Thothie

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Ah, people keep begging for that, but I don't think it's written as a contest requirement anywhere... Hard to do though - even in Daragoth, the effect is largely illusionary. It's really a bunch of angled tunnels with skybrush ceilings, which is really the safest way to do it, lest you wanna make it really low poly like Thornlands.

Rickler did a good job with Aluhandra, but well, that's Rickler. ;)
 

zeus9860

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Someone necro his ass back?
 

Thothie

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Meh, blew my travel budget on Vienna last year... Going back to Japan, to trudge through radioactive water in order to find Rickler's corpse and perform the appropriate rituals, will have to wait a bit.
 

Red Cell

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He's actually in Germany right now, and currently touring the world. He won't be back in the US for awhile.

If you think I haven't already tried to get him back, you trippin'.
 
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