SC: defence and summoning?

evilsquirrel

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methinks hush is on the right track here...replace them with two other schools that you can throw some spells into...not sure what though...

also not sure why thothie is opposed to axing the two unlevelable spell categories and raising the spell reqs...

logic: you take out two spells categories you cant level, peoples SC level will be recalculated without those dragging it down so it'll be higher, so you raise the requirements to balance it out.
 

ReBoot

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Good idea. Raising the reqs and making SC level faster won't allow low level charakters to use the overpowered spells, but low level spells would get a little easier to use due to higher mana regeneration with higher SC level. However, I don't think that that would imbalance the game: I often kill enemies with bow faster than with spells (having a higher SC level than bow skill), due to mana problems.
 

Jelly

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How about 1 new spell available each level? Like this:

Level 1: Firedart, Erratic Lightning
Level 3: Frost Bolt, Summon Rat
Level 4: Ice Wall (in game, but may raise)
Level 5: Ice Shield, Rejuvinate
Level 6: Poison, Rebuke Undead
Level 7: Fireball
Level 8: Blizzard, Summon Undead
Level 10: Lightning Storm, (Summon Rat Upgrades to Giant)
Level 13: Fire Wall
Level 15: Acid Bolt, Poison Cloud, Volcano
Level 18: Freezing Sphere
Level 19: Holy Circle (may lower)

Turns into this:

Code:
Level 1: Erratic Lightning 
Level 2: Fire Dart
Level 3: Frost Bolt 
Level 4: Poisen 
Level 5: Rebuke Undead
Level 6: Summon Undead
Level 7: Lightning Storm 
Level 8: Fire Ball
Level 10: Ice Storm
Level 13: Fire Wall 
Level 14: Chain Lightning
Level 15: Acid Bolt
Level 16: Poisen Cloud
Level 17: Volcano
Level 18: Freezing Sphere 
Level 19: Holy Circle
 

evilsquirrel

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thats a good idea too, jelly...though ya might wanna swap chain lightning and poison cloud. possibly others, too.
 

ReBoot

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Good idea. Yet, I'd still like to know where to get those spells. The traders seldom have anything and finding is... Well. Where and how to get there alive.
 

The Man In Black

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It's a good concept to have a spell per level, but the high level spells are still too low on the level-list. And it also prevents Thothie from adding new mid-range spells willy-nilly, since he would have to find an opening.
 

ReBoot

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Ok, let's say:
-make SC leveling faster by removing 2 subskills and divinding by 5
-raise top spells requirements
-introduce mid-level spells
-do nothing more

How does that sound?
 

The Man In Black

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I prefer the idea of changing the spell classes instead of getting rid of them.
 

evilsquirrel

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yeah, changing them could lead to some interesting/useful spells.

question is - what would we change them to?
 

evilsquirrel

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if anyone has any serious suggestions, you know...ones that dont come entirely from runescape...i think i'm gonna make a new post about it.
 

evilsquirrel

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i hear astral - i think runescape. in there its a non combat type of magic which would be completely useless in MSC.


/me runs off to make new post
 

ReBoot

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Guys, there are very few spells in other schools. And you want two more schools to consume time, code and ideas? That doesn't sound really good.
I think, reducing the number of schools but introducing some mid-level spells in other schools would help more, than two more schools.
 

The Man In Black

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Either way, new spells are getting added, so why not have some more categories to play around with? I'd much prefer a range of elements/schools, not just a bunch of poison spells (for example).

Also, by changing the schools instead of axing them, we're forcing people to actually go train the new spells instead of giving them freebies.
 

ReBoot

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Yeah. And where to get those spells? I recently heard that there are some at Kaldrianruins, but hey, it is neither easy to get there nor get ANYTHING there. Without dying e5 times (e5=10^5, mathematical abbreviation).
Also, it would not "giving people freebies". It would still be getting new spells and training them.
 

The Man In Black

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*Sigh* KELEDROS ruins. They're very easy to get to, and if you can't beat get to/beat Keledros without dying more than once, you shouldn't be getting the higher level spells this early.

And under your suggestion, you get rid of Summoning and Protection and re-calculate SC based on /5

But wait a minute! Going from /7 to /5.. That's going to make your SC level higher :O It's... It's almost like.. A freebie! Strange, I thought I had said it was a freebie, but I guess I hadn't.
 

ReBoot

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Thothie wanted to raise level requirements. Now search for the freebies again.
And I didn't talk about the high level stuff. I'd like to find some low level spells also. Like the affliction spell with no requirements at all.
 

The Man In Black

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Good luck finding an affliction spell "without any requirements". And the freebies are still there. I fail to see how you don't get this.

Our system:
Level calc stays the same
The unused skills become useful
Level reqs raised because it's easier to level. You can gain levels quickly but you must find the spells, first.

Your system:
Level calc changes and people's levels boost
Unused skills are gone
Level reqs are raised, but everyone has a higher level instantly.
 

ReBoot

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"You can level quickly but gotta find some spells" would also apply to killing the both subskills we talk about. Just gotta introduce some mid-level spells.

And there are affliction spells with no requirements. Look at the wiki. Or look into the game: saw an Adventurer casting affliction stuff today.
 

The Man In Black

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Level 1: Firedart, Erratic Lightning
Level 3: Frost Bolt, Summon Rat
Level 4: Ice Wall (in game, but may raise)
Level 5: Ice Shield, Rejuvinate
Level 6: Poison, Rebuke Undead
Level 7: Fireball
Level 8: Blizzard, Summon Undead
Level 10: Lightning Storm, (Summon Rat Upgrades to Giant)
Level 13: Fire Wall
Level 15: Acid Bolt, Poison Cloud, Volcano
Level 18: Freezing Sphere
Level 19: Holy Circle (may lower)

I'm sorry, where's the affliction spell that has no requirements? That's what I thought.

Yeah, you can add more spells under yours. But you're failing to see the main point of the LEVEL JUMP.
 

ReBoot

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The main point of level jump is getting the ability to kill enemies with spells, just like any other ability. And my suggestion doesn't go against that.

Instead, you miss something. The current slow leveling SC applies perfectly to high level meele charakters who train SC as an addition. However, I think that spells could and should be fun without loads of points in meele skills.
I know, Thothie said, SC was never intended to be useful as a standalone thing. However, just raising the reqs makes it more useless also as a support. Deleting the both subskills we talk about, raising reqs for high level spells and introducing some mid-level spells would make it just a little be more funny to be a second-profession caster. What is so wrong about making this part of the game more fun? Ok, seems like there are some mid-level spells already. But where are they? At least, not in areas where you can get when you are mid-level.
 

The Man In Black

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You can "kill enemies with spells" if we change Summoning and Protection to something else. Again, it comes down to either letting the player have another 2 categories to start training in to gain levels or just giving them the levels. I would much prefer to have new categories and I think a lot of people agree with me (Just check Squirrel's post).

You don't need high melee skills to use magic. If you think more HP is makes you a better magic user, then you obviously aren't using it right. Magic sholdn't be something that you just stand there and take hits for. You should be running, climbing, and freezing enemies so that you can pummel them with magic while taking few hits. If I must, I'll prove this all with an entirely magic using character.

Quit trying to use "more mid range spells" as an argument since new schools would have more spells.
 

Thothie

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Deleting both subskills doesn't change the current formula. It's just to end the confusion of "omg why can't I level that!?", it has no affect on XP calculations, they'd remain the same.

I think Lanethan had a six-category elemental ramp of somesort, but some of that ramp was equally problematic, since we're still stuck with: if it don't kill something, you can't get XP for it. Plus some segments of the ramp I've no clue what to do with. (Although, I'm not sure, as I can't seem to find it now)

Somethin like:
Fire (Fire)
Water (Ice)
Air (Lightning)
Earth (???)
Death (Affliction)
Life (Divination)
...and yer basic Spell Casting skill. (Which would still determine summon and glow strength)

Basically same situation, just under different names.

Of course, I wouldn't be able to add any Earth category spells without redoing the current ramp.

Raising the spell level REQ's just makes the current situation of veteran god-mages and a jumpy level ramp worse, so I don't want to do that.

But currently, the system is so bjorked, I'm having a hell of a time getting XP to pass to anything other than Fire, Lightning, and Ice proper (Affliction and Divination work, but they are screwy). I'm sure trying to pass XP to the current slot for Protection or Summoning will cause fun issues as well.

Really need to scrap the whole skill system and start over, it's too screwy to figure out in the damned hard code. We'd have to come up with a system to convert all the characters over to any new system though, and that's a quite a feat too.
 

ReBoot

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Bout a new system:
I got thought yesterday, something like 3 base classes (strength, agility and mind), with the current subskills in it.
Weapons at strength;
bow, small arms and unarmed in agility;
and the magic stuff in mind.
This way, we won't have a skill which takes loads of time to level, because every basic skill would have the same amount (or nearly the same amount) of subskills in game.

Also, I wonder why it is good to make SC more complicated, instead of more simple. An idea would be to introduce a totally simplified SC:
positive magic
negative magic
nature magic (containing the elemental stuff).


And also: where are the mid-level spells (like fireball, SC 4) in game? The traders only have those low-level spells which help ship in, let's say, sfor and I often hear that the high-level areas contain high-level spells (which is absolutely normal). But the mid-level areas contain no spells at all.
 
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