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Reduce stamina used by dodging.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Kanta, Dec 23, 2018.

  1. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

    310
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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    It's pretty much unanimous how people feel about dodging.

    But if it's not going anywhere, I'm sure that drastically reducing the amount of stamina it takes might make it a bit more bearable/useful.
     
    Malachite and MS:C community like this.
  2. MS:C community

    MS:C community Active Adventurer

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    Jul 7, 2011
    MS:C Discord, roughly five hours ago:
    6xgXnZ0.png

    Rumor has it that the millionth person to ask this question gets a grand prize, and another rumor has it we're getting really close to that number now.
     
    Malachite and Kanta like this.
  3. Malachite

    Malachite Adventurer Heroes of Dawn

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    7
    Dec 31, 2015
    Male
    United States
    Isn't the fix for that.. ms_doubletapdodge "0" in console or in your autoconfig?
     
  4. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Really? Thank god we finally figured that mystery out. :p
     
  5. Malachite

    Malachite Adventurer Heroes of Dawn

    99
    7
    Dec 31, 2015
    Male
    United States
    469315396252729344.png
     
  6. greatguys1

    greatguys1 Active Adventurer Developer Warriors of the North

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    Apr 20, 2013
    Yes
    I think the biggest issue is that the time needed to "double tap" it is too big & that it's not off by default. Lack of any sort've options to be able to toggle this via in the main menu also sucks, but I doubt anything can be done about that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  7. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

    310
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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    A menu option to open up a window of MS:C related parameters would be fantastic.
     
  8. TheOysterHippopotami

    TheOysterHippopotami Adventurer Source Developer Developer DarkTide RiP

    1,053
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    Sep 6, 2009
    I'd rather the stamina drain stay the same and be given some sort of short boost to your evade stat for a few seconds after you've performed a dodge.

    Also this.
     
  9. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

    310
    39
    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    This sounds like it'd be really overpowered and ultimately pointless anyways since most projectiles (at least the harder hitting, later game ones) are easy to avoid, not to mention the fact that if you are out of range of melee, you don't need an evade chance.

    I did some testing and found out that if you level your characters skills all to level 11 (you unlock left/right dodging at martial arts proficiency 11) executing a sideways dodge takes up just barely less than half of your entire stamina bar. Half. I can't be the only one that thinks that is ridiculous.
     
  10. greatguys1

    greatguys1 Active Adventurer Developer Warriors of the North

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    Apr 20, 2013
    Yes
    IIRC it's already reduced by half in the alpha
    I probably should've mentioned it before
     
  11. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Apr 8, 2005
    psycho-oligist
    lost
    msc_adv_options.png
    There's a few in this thing, though sadly, double tap dodge is not among them. I'll have to go see if I can add it (though yes, disabled by default come next installer, along with bloom.)

    Also, yes, reduced stamina drain of dodge and think we made it go a bit further. Just wish we had a combat style that made it useful more often.
     
    MS:C community likes this.
  12. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

    310
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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Yeah I know about this menu, but the thing is its slightly misplaced under the Multiplayer tab. I was thinking a button the very main menu you can click, or a new tab in the options entirely like some mods manage to do. Especially since that Multiplayer Advanced window isn't home to much in vanilla Half-Life.

    But it's whatever.
     
  13. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Apr 8, 2005
    psycho-oligist
    lost
    Hrmm... Not sure if I can rig that up (as I am now, I kinda question whether I can recall how to edit the SCR's to even add the option where it's supposed to be). It would be nice, but gotta remember we don't have much control over the menu system as it's engine side, loading before our DLL does. We can only customize it insomuch as they provided options. Indeed, until a map loads, our software isn't really running.

    I'll look into it though - I know they give you some control over the front menu options, hopefully beyond changing the title entries and fonts. (Albeit, not sure what to call that, since there's already "Options"... "Moar Options"?)
     
  14. TheOysterHippopotami

    TheOysterHippopotami Adventurer Source Developer Developer DarkTide RiP

    1,053
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    Sep 6, 2009
    Can performing a dodge be made to provide players with a small boost to their evade for a few seconds after executing the dodge, but only if they are not wearing platemail type armor? Players wearing vests (or no armor) should receive the boost but players wearing armor like AoB/PA/Gold Armor/etc. should not.
     
  15. zeus9860

    zeus9860 Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

    2,509
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    Feb 28, 2008
    Troll
    lolwut
    And how do you plan on boosting "evade"? The only things that are already ingame and can be used for this would be stamina and parry. Unless dodging could decrease the odds of receiving damage for a short moment...

    The best approach to this would be something similiar to Dark Souls, performing a dodge would make the user immune to/avoid damage for a very short amount of time, the dodge system could be reworked like that, with no armor or lighter armor consuming smaller amount of stamina, meaning u could dodge multiple times while the heavier duty armour would let you dodge once or twice, depending on your level.
    Or instead of immunity, make the player ghost through mobs so that dodge can be used to get away from corners.

    But then someone would likely find a way to be permanently immune to damage or permanently ghost for an entire map run. This is MS:C afterall, you can't get something new without it bringing a few exploits to boot.
     
  16. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    I think what Oyster is trying to say is to make enemies have a higher hitroll when you are dodging. But a temporary stat boost for dodging sounds like it has a potential for abuse skyrocketing through the roof.

    (Also the whole idea of limiting this boost only to non plate wearers is ridiculous. I would ALWAYS rather block 60% of incoming damage than have a ~chance~ to avoid an attack. This is MS:C, shit hits like a dumptruck at the speed of a formula one race car.)
     
  17. zeus9860

    zeus9860 Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

    2,509
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    Feb 28, 2008
    Troll
    lolwut
    Dodge could be applied to specific moments fighting enemies, a last moment resource to get away and heal. Giving the brief moment of damage immunity could be good enough for you to run away and heal for a bit. Of course it wouldn't work in alot of situations since alot of enemies use hax to hunt you down or have retarded range/speed that makes it almost impossible to run away to safety.

    But as the game is pretty much unbalanced at this point, adding in a dodge system of this kind would serve little to no purpose since you can just tank almost everything with the right setup and movements. This "dodge system" would make alot more sense to be applied to the game if there was a proper class system in the first place. Right now the current dodge option is simply a nuisance, that needs to be removed from the game entirelly and only bring it back with a proper class system in place.
     
  18. TheOysterHippopotami

    TheOysterHippopotami Adventurer Source Developer Developer DarkTide RiP

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    Sep 6, 2009
    I think the only way a class system could ever happen is if the elements of the system were implemented gradually. I agree that my idea is superfluous with the game in its current state, but if enough small features like this were added over time a class system could be built around those features.
     
  19. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Apr 8, 2005
    psycho-oligist
    lost
    I'd love to add some iframes to dodge for temp invulnerability or such, but eh... Yeah. The only way I could think to do it would be via applyeffect, and players are pretty good at finding ways to make those stickier than they should be (and sometimes the game finds ways to do it so all on its own). Reducing hit chance is in the same boat.

    Since the invulnerability or hit chance reduction has to be initiated server side, there's also the lag factor. It's annoying, but despite being a game with a handful of players at a go, our frame lengths are nearly the size of a full blown MMO, so anything that requires split second timing is kinda unreliable. Dodge's movement works alright because we still have the client side prediction working for us, but alas, invulnerability and hitchance have no such luck there. I mean, I suppose we *could* work up a client flag that said "hey I was invulnerable, cancel the damage", but that'd no doubt be exploited, involve reworking a lot of damage code, and mean another client<->server message for damage, and thus more overhead and lag when it came in chains.

    Maybe I'll just reduce the dodge stamina drain another 50% on top of what we already did, I dunno... Could reduce it further for leathers, but really, no one's going to be willing to take 30%-50% more damage just to dodge a little better. Would need to add a whole suite of advantages to make that viable (though it'll be a Title requirement for the more ninja/range oriented ones).

    Class features that affect dodge are in the Title plans list (whenever that'll happen), including a teleport-dodge for one Title, but, yeah... Gotta keep dreaming, I guess.
     

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