Magic Revamp Ideas

[Gersendai]

Ive been pondering for years how this game could have a real chance of seeing an improvement in the field of magic.
As a character who always leans towards magic, its only natural that I wish to see this lesser version of magic reanimated and refired to become something great and a bit more legitimate, if i do say so myself...

What this entails are 4 main things: Rebalance, Recalculate, Addition and Expansion.
I am aware that spell casting is limited by its 7 sub levels. 7? what do i mean by 7? 2 are HIDDEN. NOT USED.
This explains why its such a pain to level spellcasting past the 20s, even now with the xp boost, its still slow. Just a little faster now.

So what I would like to see happen is, a complete magic rethinking.
Really, its more simple than youd think to make magic better.

First, we add back the missing 2 sub magic levels. I would personally add Nature magic and a new form of magic I thought up.
Casters. Casting will be explained later.
Then we would need to reassociate these magics and make them smarter.
There are poison and acidic spells in affliction, however, I feel theyd be better suited in Nature.
I would change affliction to Dark, or Demonic magic and make all dark and evil magics be placed here.
Divination i would tweak to just Divine magic, cause divination is just a huge mouthful for even me (and i like big words)
This one would be entirely for undead and demon killing magics and possibly some healing like it still has.
With the right tweaks and spell associations, more spells can be created to fit the newer model for magic and expand the spell vocabulary by quite a bit.

Then we have recalculations, where we finally scale magic AS IT WOULD BE.
The concept is simple: Tier magic
Spellcasting and the sub levels of it would be subject to power increases at every tier interval; ie, 10 spellcasting makes all spells go up by 2x damage and every level along the way raises all spells by 1 damage (example) Same for sub levels, they add 1 damage per level and a tier increase at the tier of 10, so 10 sc and 10 fire makes the damage go up to 80 by this point.

By using a system like this, magic would finally come back into real use in the game as it deserves to be. Real power and real usefulness beyond level 5.

Lastly we have expansion. New magic sub levels and a reconfiguration of stats per sub level will unlock opportunity for more spells in every category and a real scaling system will allow for the magic to deal real damage and keep up with those who, at this present, are truly ahead of the game in their respective fields. (example bear claws and martial arts or bludgeon hammer with blunt weapons.)

Finally, but definately not least important and my current favorite aspect of the whole idea I have:

Casters!

What is a caster? A caster is a mage weapon, created with the most efficient magic-handling properties in mind to deal the most damage with minimal effort and non restraintive insets.

It can look like just about anything, but with one main exclusive feature: A barrel for loading magical ammo called 'Shells' and launching their magical effects out the other end, increasing their magical efficiencies and power by a certain amount.
Simpletons will think 'oh he just wants guns'. Well, i tell you what. If i could have figured out a better model for this, i would have. but this is the most versatile model you can have for something like this, and ill explain why now.

With casting, you would have to use your mana and materials gathered from specific maps or even random loots to craft your very own caster shells. These shells come in many shapes and flavors, but the most important feature to note is the interchangability mechanism. Similar to archery and crossbows, but for the sole purpose of magical uses. You change your ammo type to change your damage type as well as the power of your shots. Your caster also affects your power.

Now you might think this is too powerful or even not powerful enough. I assure you, as long as this exists, it will be perfect, or as close to perfect as itll get. It will only improve.

So as a caster with your new caster weapon and newly aquired shells, you feel like a boss, and for good reason.
I dont want this system to be too easy to use but easy enough to understand.
Casters themselves will also have the benefit of scaling, but it would encorporate everything that it means to be a caster.

Example: Caster level 10 sc level 20 and fire level 30 scaled damage would look like: T1 caster (stronger than default)
2x Damage + 2x damage caster multiplier = 4x multiplier, 20 sc 3x damage 30 fire 4x damage
so by shooting a T3 flame shell, you would create a spell strong enough to do 1440 damage
Also, Reload for sed gun is roughly 1-3 seconds (depending)

Disclaimer: These calculations are all still in the works for balancing and will be reworked as needed.
As ive been told, this is NOT an unrealistic damage at all
Remember folks: BEAR CLAWS, Upgraded Bludgeon Hammer. Nuff' said

As it stands, magic is roughly about 15x weaker than the suggested parameters ive presented and it tends to be annoying to get out dpsed by everyone else. (at the moment even swords seems to need better weapons)

So, heres my proposal. Look it over, rumminate on it. Ask yourself how much you love magic as-is right now compared to your actual favorite skills and tell me here if you believe these to be legitimate responses to helping re-evaluate magic and bring a new, proper balance to the system.

Ill do my best to help make it a reality, I just need all the support i can get.

 

[zeus9860]

Spellcasting isn't that bad right now (divination IS BAD), just need stronger spells and new sublevels to compensate those 2 that are blank.

Personally i like to use darkstaff sometimes, it's fun to use most of the time, sometimes i use phlames staff, the downfall on this staff is the open area restriction...

If we were to get new usefull spells and staves for other subskills, i'm pretty sure spellcasting would become much better in terms of main weaponry.

Speaking of staves, i'm wondering when we will get our hands in ihotohr's staff, like cmon, give me that thing already, it's calling for me (ihotohr is a noob spammer and should give me his job, i can do much better!) :roll:

 

[Gersendai]

I appreciate the feedback zeus!
I beg to differ on the power of magic at this time, however... Its all poop.
Definately need new spells and the other 2 subs for magic to fix the main issues, but definately wanna see it scale and get stronger for real. i just got 20 small arms and compared to magic spells, theyre already starting to pass up my level 33 fire, which does maybe 50-60 with phlames staff per shot. its wimpy. even my halberd does 3x the dmg easily.
Makes me a lil sad... lol
I also do want to complete the set of staffs. itll really add more mage items and utility.
I digress. still good feedback!

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

What I'd like to see is the 'darkness level' mechanic expanded on to encompass all the elements.

For example, every time you deal fire damage, your fire level charges up and ice charges down and vice versa. As your fire charge increases you simultaneously get a boost in fire damage and defense, and you get a nerf in ice damage and defense.

So, the more frequently you use a certain magic type, the more deadly you are when casting it but you take more damage from the opposing element if it hits you.

 

[Gersendai]

I did have some thought on how to try to help get all the magic in game balanced out so that it wouldnt be so hard for us to make bosses and other mobs non immune to certain attacks and vice versa, add abilities to mobs to make OUR resistances go down. lot of mechanic changes need to happen for all this wonderful stuff to come to fruition. definately good of you to bring that up in this topic oyster! thanks for the feedback!

 

[Gersendai]

Ive decided to keep rumminating on magic ideas for more spell types and see if we cant figure out a way to encorporate them.

Though now I have changed one thing i had in mind. caster weapons will be reserved for a bigger future idea.
For now, I just want to see all 7 sub skills for magic.
I personally would just name them: Fire, Wind, Water, Lightning, Earth, Holy and Dark magics.

 

[franky200]

What I'd like to see is the 'darkness level' mechanic expanded on to encompass all the elements.

For example, every time you deal fire damage, your fire level charges up and ice charges down and vice versa. As your fire charge increases you simultaneously get a boost in fire damage and defense, and you get a nerf in ice damage and defense.

So, the more frequently you use a certain magic type, the more deadly you are when casting it but you take more damage from the opposing element if it hits you.

I like this idea a lot but how is this going to work with diviniation? theres no opposite to divination?

 

[DarkSnack]

What I'd like to see is the 'darkness level' mechanic expanded on to encompass all the elements.

For example, every time you deal fire damage, your fire level charges up and ice charges down and vice versa. As your fire charge increases you simultaneously get a boost in fire damage and defense, and you get a nerf in ice damage and defense.

So, the more frequently you use a certain magic type, the more deadly you are when casting it but you take more damage from the opposing element if it hits you.

I like this idea a lot but how is this going to work with diviniation? theres no opposite to divination?

Well franky there is but it's not used(I think)
Darkness level is that thing if it increases ,holyness goes down AKA divination. So yes making Dark level attacks increase such asark sword,Blood Drinker and future dark spells perhaps? But there should be some npc's in the future with holy attacks to actually give a meaning to this.

 

[Keldorn]

Think the whole specializing in one element while getting a weakness in another idea is already covered in the proposed title system.

Bound to be a little unbalanced, considering how much more effective some damage types are compared to others when it comes to raw damage. Generally, you don't apply ice/lightning DoTs to deal damage, you're doing it to debuff, unless you're specifically trying to level ice/lightning.

Would like to see some mechanic that reduces darkness level besides waiting for a few years ingame if it ever sees any use though.

 

[DarkSnack]

That whole concept is seems good to be honest.
I think that darkness should be the opposite of holy so therefor if you use holy damage your darkness level should decrease and viceversa.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Think the whole specializing in one element while getting a weakness in another idea is already covered in the proposed title system.

Implementing this feature would be a stepping stone to an eventual class system.

 

[Thothie]

Well, the way the game maps are setup, you'd basically be consigning someone who ran Tundra a few times, never to visit Phlames, or visa-versa.

As the maps are not setup with this in mind, I'd much rather let people choose their elemental specializations (ala titles) than have them forced upon them by circumstance or visited locales.

(The opposite of Divination is Affliction, btw - though there's some fuzziness in there with the whole lightning/acid dynamic.)

I've not really been able to respond to this thread, as I feel as though the changes coming down the pipe to the magical system are so fundamental that they are going to render the vast majority of this conversation moot. It isn't a simple rebalance, but an entirely new, action-oriented spell system, where mana will regenerate so fast as to make mana potions useless (probably be dividing them up into fortify pool and fortify regeneration rate potions instead), where it'll be more about how many spells you can cast in a second, or how much energy you want to store into a single spell, over time, before releasing it. It'll be more about allocating time on the fly, and less about single spell advances. As it'll also introduce one handed spells, it'll likely also bring magic more into the fold as a primary aspect of the game, complementing melee, rather than an after thought.

The plan is also to create a simple and formulaic system of spells, to, yes, keep all lines in balance as much as possible. But even that is such a radical theme that rambling off skill multipliers gets real meaningless, real fast.

I'd like to keep *some* of the classic spells, but I suspect some will be difficult to balance out with the newer system - it maybe some of them will just be there as sort of cameos, and go into obsolescence by the spells that work with the system right quick. (Volcano, for instance, is difficult to work with due to its unpredictability, but hopefully I'll figure some way to keep it around.)

Now I know someone is going to look at me and go, "But Thothie, you don't like to make major fundamental changes to the game!"... To which I'd point out, that magic, in this game, pretty much didn't exist until I started fiddling with it. There was fire dart, and erratic lightning - and that was it - nothing else really worked or was trainable. As such, I don't feel it too much of a betrayal to do some more fundamental changes to that system - although I do have to be careful not to fall into such a trap where magic looks so inviting that nothing else matters.

 

[zeus9860]

Are those your plans for 2013 Thothie? :roll:

Hell yeah! xD

 

[Gersendai]

Thothie, I gotta say, some of the ideas you stated in your post ive thought of before and even things like dual casting/ one-handed spells. totally been pondering the possibility of such things. If possible, one day id like to potentially see a spell making tool for in-game use of some kind. ive seen a similar plugin made for a different hl-mod before. it was intense. wish i had those kinds of programming skills. i digress.

If the class system is coming in sometime this year along with a magic revamp of the caliber youre speaking of, then i would most likely be playing msc for a long time to come. and ive already been on and off this for years. I didnt realize you were the main reason magic had expanded so much in the first place.

Considering the potential of the type of new magic system youre referring to, I could easily make a lot of magical devices and especially spells for it, for one-handed, two-handed, combination and even conjunction spells (spells you cast one after another to 'build it up' before it becomes a new, more powerful spell.) and with a system like this, you have a lot of potential to whether or not certain spells have charges or what spells will have conjunction or combination effects. the possibilities in this scenario are endless.

Love all the feedback in the thread. thanks for that.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Well, the way the game maps are setup, you'd basically be consigning someone who ran Tundra a few times, never to visit Phlames, or visa-versa.

Not if the effect was less pronounced/had a cap for generalists. Say, for generalists, the buffs/debuffs couldn't go beyond, perhaps, 20%.

 

[Thothie]

Well, the way the game maps are setup, you'd basically be consigning someone who ran Tundra a few times, never to visit Phlames, or visa-versa.

Not if the effect was less pronounced/had a cap for generalists. Say, for generalists, the buffs/debuffs couldn't go beyond, perhaps, 20%.

I was thinking you were talking more 5-10% to begin with... 20% is a pretty cruel damage penalty and would keep you off the opposing elemental themed maps.

Again, if the maps were designed with that in mind, four elemental maps in each tier, it might be more viable, but otherwise it's just crippling folks for playing the game right (using the right element in the right area).

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I was thinking you were talking more 5-10% to begin with... 20% is a pretty cruel damage penalty and would keep you off the opposing elemental themed maps.

To begin with I was thinking something more minuscule, like 1 or 2%. The potency of the buffs and debuffs would continue to charge from that point, up to x% for generalists and y% for this or that 'mage' class.

Again, if the maps were designed with that in mind, four elemental maps in each tier, it might be more viable, but otherwise it's just crippling folks for playing the game right (using the right element in the right area).

Elemental themed maps are pretty retarded in more ways than one. Just because a map may be in a snowy environment does not mean every monster has to deal ice damage and be weak against fire. Maps with encounters like that are too obvious and make for juvenile game play. One might even call them elementary.

 

[Thothie]

Just because a map may be in a snowy environment does not mean every monster has to deal ice damage and be weak against fire. Maps with encounters like that are too obvious and make for juvenile game play. One might even call them elementary.

I suppose mappers just think it looks a tad odd to make a hellfire themed map and fill it with ice elementals, lest visitors may wonder why they don't melt.

Elemental themed maps are pretty common in MORPG's, and they tend to look the part, and be populated accordingly. One might even say, it's elementary game design, after all.

 

[FER]

We already have elementals immune to their weaknesses, lol.

 

[Thothie]

True that, although hardly an original balancer... And yeah, most all the elemental themed maps mix it up some.

Still holds though, that the majority of mobs on an elemental theme map are vulnerable to cold and dish out fire or visa versa. So under such a system, you either wind up voluntarily crippling yourself by not exploiting this weakness, in order not to wreck yourself for a map with an opposite theme, or, involuntarily cripple yourself on the opposing elemental map when you visit it - one way or the other, in the end, you get screwed - and as we don't have matching elemental maps for every level, that'll either wind up being extraordinarily cruel, barring or crippling players for some maps that they'll thus have no desire to visit, or force everyone into a certain elemental specialization while in a certain level range,

 

[rhys8866]

That system sounds very similar to something I read about the other day, I think it was to do with a Din's Curse mod. It was how you "Channel" the magic through you and you are only able to withstand up to a certain power of magic, as long as you have enough elemental resistance to that magic, in order for you to be able to handle it without harming yourself. Or something like that, I thought it was a pretty cool idea.

I do feel like the game needs something more in the way of specialization with magic. Although I always loved and hated the fact that you have to level everything to make your character stronger overall. It meant that you weren't tied to any system that allowed you to (so to speak) fuck up your "build".

But in turn, whilst you can still specialize in certain skills (hence the title system) you still have to level everything to become that much stronger, or more proficient where it raises a certain stat.

It would be nice to see some form of focusing your magic like I've mentioned before, if you wanted to be a sort of Cleric, healing and buffing your teammates with certain spells, maybe dealing holy magic alongside your heal AoE's like the HC.

But again, this means that you struggle against monsters that aren't weak to divination magic.

Whilst I do like the idea, I like to be able to use all the magic elements as they come with their own advantages in certain situations or against certain foes. Rather than having to suffer (I suppose a tiny penalty isn't much in the way of suffering) penatlies for specializing in one element.

One thing I think I'd like to see is the magic spells properly tiered. Almost like they are now, but categorised specifically by level perhaps, maybe even have it so the spell itself does level with you?

Frost tier, for example

Tier 1, Starting/Beginner spell: Ice 0 - 5
Lesser Frost Shard

Tier 2, Novice: Ice 5 - 10
Frost Shard
Unlock - Lesser Blizzard
Unlock - Ice Shield

Tier 3, Apprentice: Ice 10 - 15
Upgrade - Greater Frost Shard
Upgrade - Blizzard
Unlock - Ice Wall
Ice Mastery I:
Ice spell duration +10%
Ice spell damage +2%
Ice spell radius +5%
Ice resistance +5%

Tier 4, Adept: Ice 15 - 20
Greater Frost Shard
Greater Blizzard
Unlock - Freezing Sphere
Ice Mastery II:
Ice spell duration +20%
Ice spell damage +4%
Ice spell radius +10%
Ice resistance +10%

Tier 5, Mastery: Ice 20 - 30+
Unlock - Freezing Aura Requires mana upkeep (reduction to max mana whilst active)
Lightly slows (10%) and damages enemies in (breathing distance) melee range, enhances ice resist by 5% when active. Does not stack on bosses. Does not affect players.
(New aura concept? Only one aura active at a time?)

Unlock - Freezing Circle
Much like hoarfrost special, does cumulative ice damage over time, slowing the effected target 5.5% per second, up to 45%. The longer a target is held, the more damage dealt basically. Only one active FC at a time per player. Can stack circles.
Ice Mastery III:
Ice spell duration +40%
Ice spell damage +8%
Ice spell radius +20%
Ice resistance +20%
(Have masteries increase a small amount per sub level instead? And a small multiplier for element resist (EG DAM * 0.02% per 1% resist? equals to *2.0 at 100% resist. May they have variable rates for each mastery stat?)

I've also wondered if it would be a good idea to have the magic charge, as you prepair the spell, powering your resistances and applying the buffs/penalties, much like the Frost Bow does when you equip it. Unless that was already mentioned and I missed it, it's 4:00am and I'm quite tired, I only quickly read 90% of this topic before posting, Sorry.

Last minute edit: I'm not keen on the fact that certain weapon's charges are much more efficient for leveling some of the spell casting sub level categories than most of the spells themselves. That just feels wrong to me. It's a nice touch, but I never really liked it all that much. I don't see why stronger spells couldn't be added in their place, and the charges just level their respective weapon skills instead, maybe 5% of the xp still going towards that SC sub category, rather than 100% of it (Don't some charges share xp like that anyway?)...I talk too much.

 

[zeus9860]

That's the magic system revamp that we much likely won't see ever.

So might aswell just add the 2 promised elemental schools to SC to even it out, release more spells and give up on the thing entirely for the time being. It's like this revamp has been delayed by 4-5 years now, it's the same as waiting for half life 3, people are hyped in the beginning and by the time it actually comes, some people will be like "meh, w/e." Interest is lost rather quickly when people are kept on hold forever.

So, honestly i think magic should be updated just like that, and the class system + magic revamp should be done in the future, near the endgame, to give the players more reason to replay the mod under certain preferences with their playstyle. It would make sense to me.

Not only that, but any big update of the kind, that makes a huge impact on gameplay should come later down the road, this doesn't refer to questing or anything alike, mostly combat related updates.