Intuitive Reality vs. Magic Reality

Allow "Over Immunity"

  • Yes, more interesting game mechanics FTW!

    Votes: 10 100.0%
  • No thanks, make it work more like the world I know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    10
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  • #1

Thothie

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Been re-working the elemental resistance systems and supplying indicators for it (both taking me far too long), and then I was noticing, we can indeed get away with having negative immunities, without it resulting in damage healing the target.

So, we thus have two options:

Option One:
Add an interesting game mechanic in which mobs with high resistances can be made vulnerable to magical attacks they'd normally be immune to. Opening us to the mechanic that, when more monsters do add stacks of elemental vulnerability, they'll need to add more stacks on some players to make them vulnerable (eg. Cold Helm + Frostbow = Immune+50%, so they'd need to lay on enough stacks of vulnerability to defeat that.)

"Magic works akin to limited weaving of Fate, granted by the gods, who Fated the systems of reality. Thus, if one pours enough poison vulnerability magic into a rock, one will eventually be able to break it with poison magic."

Pros: More interesting mechanics with more options.
Cons: Kinda weird.

Option Two: Keep it as it is, don't let invulnerabilities go into the negatives, and don't let mobs or players invulnerable to an element become vulnerable, no matter how many layers of vulnerability are stacked on.

"No matter how much poison vulnerability you stack onto a skeleton, it isn't going to grow a circulatory system."

Pros: More intuitive.
Cons: Less interesting and less options.


As to application, for the first option, I'd probably make all mobs naturally immune to a damage type have that immunity at -3.0, so it would still take several stacks of elemental vulnerability to make them take damage from that element. Currently, to make a skeleton vulnerable to poison, for instance, that would mean you'd need at least two players with dual Envenomed Crescent Blades. However, something immune to fire might become vulnerable to it, if it stood in a Fire Bomb's area of effect for long enough. (This would not affect Holy immunity on players, as Apostle candidates are a special case, not that I ever expect to see an enemy who adds Holy vulnerability - but we already have a few who add Darkness contamination.)

The second option would just mean being more careful about making judgment calls on this sorta thing. The Pyron, for instance, probably would be immune to acid, even from a magical source.

Either way, expect to see a lot more elemental vulnerability magic flying around from both sides as the game goes on, via magic items, weapons, and certain Titles with spells.

It's the sorta meta-decision I'm a bit torn on, so take yer pick from the poll above.
 

Skillasaur

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Jan 1, 2006
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I'm going to vote option 1, but with the caveat that we change the damage log to show how much damage is being resisted. Judging a weapon's base power becomes a lot more difficult the more elemental resistances effect it.

Also I'd quite like a way of actually seeing a creature's resistances in-game. MSC is quite a difficult game, accessibility-wise. Perhaps have it as an item-based buff, like the Bloodstone ring.

Edit: Also if there is a mechanic to make an enemy vulnerable it should be exploitable by a single player, even if that means weapon-switching. If it only makes them vulnerable for half a second or fades if you change weapon it won't be interesting, it will only be frustrating.
 

Uberzolik

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Sons of Babel
Alpha Tester
Jan 24, 2013
170
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i imagine it's intended to function similarly to the acid lance's DOT effect (where it makes the enemy more vulnerable), except more oriented towards an effect similar to blaze (alpha leaks whoops)

fwiw, i very much like the idea of having more items functionally similar to the phlames staff's new effects, as it provides an actual dynamic you can coordinate with multiple people. making ice-immune enemies no longer immune to ice so you can freeze them, same deal with lightning, etc... could be handy in certain situations.

as for enemies... well, it might provide an interesting counter-mechanic for the fact people can be essentially immune to all resistances. this could honestly go in a million ways, depending on how its balanced. could be obnoxiously difficult again, could actually make it so you need to care a little bit about how you fight enemies. it's a pretty dangerous line, really, but if well executed it'd be definitely a good addition
 

zeus9860

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Blades of Urdual
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The True Followers of the Lost
Alpha Tester
Feb 28, 2008
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Wouldn't it be better if you applied a counter element bonus that lowers resists to the opposite element...? At least this is what i see when it comes to magic elements in game, at least the basic elements. They usually come in pairs, one cancels the other or makes it stronger.

If an enemy is 100% resistant to cold damage, use fire on the target to lower the resistance temporarly, vice versa.
Lightning vs poison, vice versa.
Earth (wind) could lower the resists of all basic elements by half the rate.
Acid does the samething as earth, except non basic elements are included aswell (dark/holy/etc), with non basic elements being more difficult to lower.

Enemies with 100% resistance to both fire and cold should remain immune to both fire and cold. Same stuff applies to other vs. I would still apply a negative resistance bonus to such moments, so, if an enemy is lowered into a negative value, he could become staggered by the elements (drunk, slow, freeze, fear, etc). Enemies could only get negative resists if they had a certain % of resist against a specific element.

Make it so that non elites can be staggered by this stuff by a solo player, elites on the other hand would require at least 2 players to make it happen, let's say each player can lower resists for 50% vs elites. This is for basic elements. For non basic elements, double the amount of players to 2 and 4 specifically.

One last thing, if you are applying these things to both the enemies and the player, do not forget to remove the elemental resist cap for the player, it would only be fair that the player could reach 100% immunity in say, lightning. And have it lowered to like -25% if the player was not carefull enough. This would make lodestones not really a necessary thing to get 100% lightning resist, but instead could be used to recover the lost resistance with a quick drink.

I somewhat agree with what skillasaur said, there could be a new quest item that helps the player get more details on the enemy. Not sure if it is possible to make some sort of text scan in the hud event box, it remains permanently on top of the box and when the player aims at the enemy, you get some details, as if you were scanning the enemy to some extent. Like resists and perhaps damage type and total hp (resists are the big thing here).
 

Kanta

Old Skool Apostle
Alpha Tester
Jan 24, 2013
504
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ms_swamp
I like the idea of removing an enemies invulnerability/resistance to elements. But players shouldn't be able to feel the same amount of reduction, say only a certain amount of resistant stripped off and even less if the player has drunk an immunity potion. Ideally. If this whole resistance stripping effect becomes more widespread is should be primarily a tool for players, with only a handful of tough mobs and bosses being able to put that extra squeeze on the play during difficult sections of/at the end of a map.
 
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Thothie

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While the community seems like the core concept, I'm seeing a lotta caveats in here...

If an enemy is 100% resistant to cold damage, use fire on the target to lower the resistance temporarly, vice versa.
This goes into the category of "unnecessary complicating things with no gameplay benefit, beyond complication", IMO... Plus, want a system we can slowly roll in, rather than something that'll make us have to universally rebalance all the mobs at once.

One last thing, if you are applying these things to both the enemies and the player, do not forget to remove the elemental resist cap for the player, it would only be fair that the player could reach 100% immunity in say, lightning. And have it lowered to like -25% if the player was not carefull enough. This would make lodestones not really a necessary thing to get 100% lightning resist, but instead could be used to recover the lost resistance with a quick drink.
Currently, under this system, an immunity potion would reset you to 0. I am tempted to rig it so instead they gave a -2 (300% resistance). But that would mean, if you were under a lotta vulnerability effects, they might not quite grant immunity. That would be, however, off in some distant hypothetical future where such a thing were possible - currently no mob can stack nearly that many vulnerability effects. The only mobs that stack any at all are the Fire Hydra, and flame welding elven warriors - and even they couldn't, as they'd have to set you on fire first (even if that weren't the case, think ya'd need about 50 elven warriors). I suppose Phlame probably should lay on Blaze stacks, but I'd have to go back and nerf the heck out of him and/or make the effect at least as weak as his staff, despite his innate elemental affinity, and like the staff, only apply when he smacks you with it.

I somewhat agree with what skillasaur said, there could be a new quest item that helps the player get more details on the enemy. Not sure if it is possible to make some sort of text scan in the hud event box, it remains permanently on top of the box and when the player aims at the enemy, you get some details, as if you were scanning the enemy to some extent. Like resists and perhaps damage type and total hp (resists are the big thing here).
Ganky to say the least, even if we had a floater text function. I might be able to rig some ability that puts runes over the heads of mobs based on their weakness/resistances, expanding on the sprite array system I've already been working on to indicate vulnerability. Maybe something akin to the Bloodstone Ring.

Closest thing we have in that regards, at the moment, is the Chaos Axe, which will always attempt to find the strongest elemental weakness, after the first strike.

Also if there is a mechanic to make an enemy vulnerable it should be exploitable by a single player, even if that means weapon-switching. If it only makes them vulnerable for half a second or fades if you change weapon it won't be interesting, it will only be frustrating.
Not currently... Most you can do in single player is knock off 100% invulnerability for 30 seconds with a pair of Crescent Blades of the same element. (Or knock off 50% resistance of two elements for 15 seconds, with mismatched blades.) Keep in mind I've made that easy to do, and it now has the added benfit of making you immune to applyeffects while yer doing it, in addition to the damage reduction. Still, ya'd need to knock off at least 200% to make a naturally invulnerable mob vulnerable - though, with a pair of Burning Crescents combined with a Fire Bomb, I suppose it could be done. (Then again, maybe not, think the bomb won't start applying stacks of Blaze until after the first time it manages to catch the guy on fire... Phlame's staff? Yeah, maybe, for a bit.)

It's not something I'm liable to make easy for a single player to do, but as more such items get added into the system, it may possible. More common usage would be to make a resistant mob less resistant, or a vulnerable mob even more vulnerable. Making an invulnerable mob vulnerable would be about the same level of magic as breaking a rock with poison. (Ignoring the fact that our various map-side rocks don't much care what you break them with.)

I'm going to vote option 1, but with the caveat that we change the damage log to show how much damage is being resisted. Judging a weapon's base power becomes a lot more difficult the more elemental resistances effect it.
Might be able to do that - will have to look into it. Might be simple enough to have up before the next (long overdue) alphapack.

If this whole resistance stripping effect becomes more widespread is should be primarily a tool for players, with only a handful of tough mobs and bosses being able to put that extra squeeze on the play during difficult sections of/at the end of a map.
That was the intent - mappers be demanding sometimes though, and I cave too easily too often. ;) But yeah, probably just some special mobs, bosses, or special escorts that ya wanna kill off in a hurry. Could see an end boss like Kharaztorant periodically knocking out your fire immunity outright, but beyond that, temporary annoyances to be dealt with, and likely few, if any, that could make an invulnerable player vulnerable, barring a swarm of them being allowed to accumulate (or, yeah, maybe prolonged melee with Phlame).
 

Truewarrior

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Jan 5, 2006
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I find all the resistances stuff too complicated, I miss the times I could just hack and slash with everyone in all the maps. I feel like at the point my character is at I can't just jump in a play with other players
 
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Thothie

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Hopefully we'll get that resistance message in and make things more intuitive in the process - though ya could always vote "no". I'd hate to find out we have a silent majority that's too afraid of the community to vote against it.
 

Thothie

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I'm going to vote option 1, but with the caveat that we change the damage log to show how much damage is being resisted. Judging a weapon's base power becomes a lot more difficult the more elemental resistances effect it.
good thing it isn't 19 days after MiB's birthday.png
(Switched from fists to bear claws after the first two hits.)

Hate to mess with a report older than time, but had to shorten it. I'd use "[+/-##%]" for the report, rather than "[##% vulnerable/resistant]", but I'm afraid, much as with the "(roll/accuracy)" thing, it'd just confuse players. It only shows up if the mob has a resistant or vulnerability to the damage type, at least.

One downside is you only get the "(roll/accuracy)" message on misses now.

I suppose it'd be nice if the font had symbols we could use for element types, but alas.

edit: Cleaned up a bit more.
 
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Echo717

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Aug 22, 2008
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I personally adore immunity breaking, loved that shit in grim dawn, bleed and poison some ghosts to death. I never got why undead were immune to poison I mean I got the whole can't breath in poison without lung things, but I always thought you could make something nasty that doesn't react well when it meets calcium (bones).
 
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