Frostbow but it actually works

Cyclophammer

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I don't really feel like writing another essay, so can we just make Frostbow provide Fire resistance instead of ice.
Thanks :)
 

Thothie

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We could but it should be fairly obvious why we didn't. ;)

Not that fire immunity is hard to obtain, but in our cruelty, we have forced you to grind more than one map to gain both perpetual fire immunity and infinite ice arrows.
 

Cyclophammer

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We could but it should be fairly obvious why we didn't. ;)
Bad game design?

This is neither about the fire immunity per se nor the ice arrows. It's for the simple fact that the design in itself is stupid beyond belief. I can't even fathom having to explain that an item providing ice resistance, while at the same time being unusable against those enemies, is maybe the worst piece of game design in this game. Even worse than the loot system. You dont have fire immunity, unless you're using a Fire resistance helmet and are actively holding this item.
Ice arrows are trash regardless. Ice/Freezing in general scales so poorly since the HP of mobs vs. Player HP are so far apart eventually, to a point where being able to freeze a mob, would mean its two hits away from dying anyways.
Secondly its a level 25 Archery Item, which surely deserves some level power.
Also there is a "bug", draining your mana, when shooting stuff that is already frozen.

But just a little mental excercise:
Let's pretend I want to make use of the Ice resistance. I pull out my frost bow, wait 10 seconds for it to charge up. Then put it back in, because two times the charm apparantly. Now I will pull it out for real. I am expecting some Ice damage coming my way after all. Time to defend myself. Oh wait, they are all immune?! No problemo, I will just CHANGE WEAPONS. Poof resistance gone.

If that interaction seems fine in your mind, then what do I know. Getting Fire Immunity pots is a non issue. Making this item at least playable would be the proper solution.
 

Thothie

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The guy who made it did not intend it to be an omnipotent "pwn all fire maps" item on its own, as it would be if we did as you request... Good for Khaz cultists and various other elemental mixes, as well as slowing up sieges and keeping groups of mobs inside other AOE tickers, but that's it. It is WAI. Very few items offer multiple elemental abilities, as then you wouldn't have to collect nearly as many of them, and it would quickly defeat having an elemental system.
 

Cyclophammer

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It is WAI.
Yeah my point being: The Intention part is trash. I'm not sure if we are playing the same game. I'm struggling to find "all fire maps". In fact in no map will fire immunity suffice. I know this, because I play the game. Item value is very important, because inventory is limited. Fire Immunity pots are the most available resistance pots.
Actually only element being Thunder is tough. It requires a Lodestone to defeat the stupid clouds, you find on Loda. Obviously there is no counterplay to our beloved Cloudyboiz. Unless putting on an AoB and dying over and over is supposed to be good game design. But hey thats a different story.
Even with changed resistance Frost bow will be playable but not "hehehe xd ez phlames". But you got the tools to test that yourself. Change it and see how far you get.
Again I know all this, because I play the game
Unless you obviously want to turn it into another candidate for your "Dust" system. But then again you can just remove the item and award the Dust instead.
 

Thothie

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That's what Lodestone Potions are for (also helps to level lightning, since the ring's protection level is dependent on it). Though that's not usually where I get stuck on Lodagond, even with my weaker characters, in my 50,000+ playthroughs of that nightmare, so I don't tend to waste them there.

Granted, under NOV2015, the lightning resistance ring has been particularly frustrating to obtain - since fixed.

But yes, oddly, no one item will do everything for ya.
 

Cyclophammer

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Though that's not usually where I get stuck on Lodagond
No one gets stuck, because you can just respawn forever. It just isn't engaging. But show me how you do the clouds on Loda, even with a maxed out Ring of Grounding. Maybe we are all just bad and thats why there is no counterplay.
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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I don't see anything wrong with the frost bow, although the resistance lasts for such a small period of time that i've never actually heard of anyone using it for that purpose.


The ring of grounding, on the other hand, is one of the most egregious examples of permanently fucking up this game. You'd think an item with lots of lightning resistance would have the effect of protecting you from lightning monsters, but the result was that all lightning based monsters were just made ridiculously strong to compensate, which in turn made the ring of grounding required in order to defeat lightning monsters, so it went from an optional accessory to a must-have item that can never be taken off (god forbid, it mysteriously deletes itself and you don't notice like it did in my case).

That is called backing yourself into a corner, and it's not exclusive to the ring of grounding, either. The same effect happened with ice shield, for example. Ice shield caused all monsters to be designed with the assumption that players were always wearing ice shield, creating a super annoying requirement that ice shield be active at all times. If ice shield had not been released monsters wouldn't have to hit you so damn hard to begin with and this game would be 10x less frustrating, but because it was released so early it cannot be undone. Every monster made in the last 20 years was crafted with the assumption that players are constantly casting ice shield.

The same issue is true with gpops and the armor system that gives a flat 40-50% damage reduction as soon as you are able to get gladiator armor. The fact that they all stack with ice shield makes the problem 100x worse too, because monsters must be designed to hit SO hard that they can compete with players who have drank a gpop, are wearing armor and have ice shield cast. If a monster CAN'T deal with such a player, then players are invincible if they use that combo. Therefore, most monsters were designed to deal with that combo so now, if players DON'T use that combo they get wrecked immediately. It's probably the dumbest feedback loop I've ever seen in any online game.

You can't just release items that give 50% reduction - you have to release them in tiers, with 50% reduction being reserved for high level players. Otherwise every monster in the game will be forced to deal trollerific damage to compensate for items that were released too early, which in turn forces these items to be in use at all times, which kills player customization and different play styles.
 

Thothie

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But show me how you do the clouds on Loda, even with a maxed out Ring of Grounding. Maybe we are all just bad and thats why there is no counterplay.
Oh, you're going to be a special problem child aren't you? ;)

Sure, I'll dump a day and rare opportunity at weekend development for encoding video, just to do that for you (neglected to roll my client back for it though):
[Granted, would go a bit better if I had a Healing Circle tome hotkeyed on the test character, and well, I didn't suck. But short story short, use pillars for cover so they rarely hit you all at once, put HC's on em, kill with favorite holy weapon, and, as always, bring soup (more than I did). This is a 40 test char with a protection potion - dun think I could do it with less than 35, but, as intended, and there are more optimal combinations. (PS. Dev skull status icon means I'm in combat, rather than immune death, as it would suggest - meh, just watch the health.)]

Mind, there are several combat challenges in MSC I just can't complete, even with a maxed out 50 character and cheats, cuz I suck - but this isn't among them. Those which I can't (including the jump puzzle near this - which I have to teleport past) I just depend on player testers and statistics for. Even for this, a quick scan of FN tells me there's 2,266 characters with either one of the items unique to the Lodagond-4, or one of the five Sorc_Villa items crafted using them (multiples of them), so there's really no need for me to show that I can pass this, even with my crappy skills, when I can easily see plenty of folks are pulling it off just fine. (Even if, yes, the whole series is a slog.)

Gah, picked up an [EXEC_CMD] error during that... Great, now I gotta track that down and the variable conflicts - anything to delay the patch another few weeks... *sigh*

the resistance lasts for such a small period of time that i've never actually heard of anyone using it for that purpose
Wouldn't normally be used for that, it's just an extra feature for those darn rainbows I keep telling people not to make. Should be permanent until stowed though, then another 10 seconds for it to come back up. NOV2015 is a bit glitchy with it.

The same issue is true with gpops and the armor system that gives a flat 40-50% damage reduction as soon as you are able to get gladiator armor.
Which was the case before I got here... Granted, it made more sense when we had 11 maps, and, as I've said so many times before, I'd like the stair stepping to be smoother, but certain items, yes, are required to move into the next tier, the intent being to force you to do certain maps. Now that we have near 100 maps, we could do much smoother stair stepping, but as I'm not willing to tear down a nostalgia based game and start from scratch, it means layering on new factors instead. (Besides, you know what happens when we nerf anything around here, or if some item someone struggled for doesn't instantly turn you into a god - end up with endless threads like these.)

But the Lightning Ring does not offer 50% resistance, off the bat, it offers double your lightning skill resistance (which was rare to have over 15 at the time of its introduction) and caps at 75%. There are no other permanent, non-expendable lightning resistance options, and most of the truly nasty lightning mobs (including most of those on Lodagond) were in the game before it was. They follow the rules for lightning damage which haven't been changed, it's just that a lot of them happen to be bosses, which have quad base damage attributes. (I mean, if you think the Shadow Forms are bad, may the gods help you when you reach Maldora.) But yes, it's fully intentional that to face one of those bosses, you'd better have either the ring or potion. As with most games, resistance for the related element is mandatory, when facing an elemental boss. Similarly, yes, you must have resistance potions and armor when dealing with any challenging area, the higher the level the area, the more you'll need.

It's just not the sorta RPG where you can run around naked with your level 1 wooden sword and take on everything where equipment and enhancements are optional. But maybe one of the spin-offs will be...

...not that we haven't covered all that a million times before...
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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Sure, I'll dump a day and rare opportunity at weekend development for encoding video, just to do that for you (neglected to roll my client back for it though):
1) You cheat your way through every map when you test, but you can't just cheat your way to the clouds in lodagond in 5-10 minutes when proving a point?

2) Every skill in this video is at level 40. Hardly representative of the level range Lodagond was intended for.

3) You're drinking a protection potion, wearing a ring of grounding with max skills and the best armor.

Wouldn't normally be used for that, it's just an extra feature for those darn rainbows I keep telling people not to make. Should be permanent until stowed though, then another 10 seconds for it to come back up. NOV2015 is a bit glitchy with it.
Pretty sure it's never been permanent until put away. I even remember a message in the hud that says you get ten seconds of resistance or something but its been a while since i've used it so I could be just making that part up i guess


Which was the case before I got here... Granted, it made more sense when we had 11 maps, and, as I've said so many times before, I'd like the stair stepping to be smoother, but certain items, yes, are required to move into the next tier, the intent being to force you to do certain maps. Now that we have near 100 maps, we could do much smoother stair stepping,
This would be a fair point if you weren't still doing it. See comments like these:
Similarly, yes, you must have resistance potions and armor when dealing with any challenging area, the higher the level the area, the more you'll need.
as always, bring soup (more than I did).
Soup is the biggest offender of all time. Now everyone essentially has infinite mana. Soup would be fine if you couldn't just buy infinite quantities at Edana for 200 gold but somehow you either don't see how it's going to cause every new monster to assume players have infinite mana, or don't think that is a problem.


I'm not willing to tear down a nostalgia based game and start from scratch, it means layering on new factors instead.
You can bury the nostalgia in a nostalgia based game just as easily by adding too much of the wrong stuff. A well planned reset is much more likely to preserve nostalgia than piling on more and more new features, especially if the new features just make players more and more god-like. Nothing ruins nostalgia more than a game full of god-like players. It's the bane of every online RPG, from Everquest, to WoW and it's the reason why WoW Classic and Everquest Classic are so popular right now.

In the case of MSC, a viable class system would help alleviate the "all players are gods" syndrome that the game is currently suffering from. If players had actual strengths and weaknesses that they had to choose from, then the game would not be a simple matter of "everybody get soup and spam bear claws until it dies".


There are no other permanent, non-expendable lightning resistance options, and most of the truly nasty lightning mobs (including most of those on Lodagond) were in the game before it was.
That's not true, before they were clouds they were bugged out horrors that crashed maps but were not nearly so tough, and the ring of lightning resistance had long been out before they were turned into clouds to stop the map from crashing. It also bothers me they are still called shriekmaws when they no longer have maws, but that's another discussion.

(I mean, if you think the Shadow Forms are bad, may the gods help you when you reach Maldora.)
Are you kidding me? The clouds are way harder than Maldora. Aside from the yellow crystal the shadow forms are the hardest thing in lodagond, but you can't really compare those things since the yellow crystal isn't a mob. the shadow forms are the hardest mob.

If you just test maps using slay-all or maxed out test characters you'll never get a feel for how this game really plays out. The video you posted and your comments in this thread demonstrate to me that cyclophammer is right so far as you don't 'actually play this game' enough to have a clear understanding of what it feels like for the average player.

As with most games, resistance for the related element is mandatory, when facing an elemental boss.
Actually, most games have a limited amount of choices a player can make with all the items he has. For example, most games don't let you equip every single ring or accessory at once, they make you choose, which allows for at least some semblance of character customization. MSC does not have this at all and just consists of every player wearing the same equipment and spamming the same attack, usually some silly combo like infinite soup+bearclaws.
 
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Thothie

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1) You cheat your way through every map when you test, but you can't just cheat your way to the clouds in lodagond in 5-10 minutes when proving a point?
Don't cheat with every test, but yes, that's what I did. Not gonna spend all day slogging from Lodagond 1-3 for this.

2) Every skill in this video is at level 40. Hardly representative of the level range Lodagond was intended for.
It's intended for 35, didn't lose more than half my HP.

3) You're drinking a protection potion, wearing a ring of grounding with max skills and the best armor.
As intended. (Albeit, the "best" armor is just 10% better than the next four below it, and it's not the best helm for the job.) But yes, you are expected to have farmed out CotBG and acquired mighty collection of potions, well before you face Lodagond, and have at least the best of everything you can get at a maxed 35, plus some hand me downs (plus help, if you intend to go to the end). ...and of course you have the Ring of Grounding (as Cyc suggested), if not a straight up lodestone potion for pure immunity.

If you don't all have that, you shouldn't be able to get past it.

Now the Holy Spear might have been a valid complaint - even if the Felewyn blade, projectiles, or some physical damage options actually work a bit better, and the spear is much more common among the player inventories getting passed around - but true, the Golden Axe generally won't cut it, lest you have help or immunity.

Pretty sure it's never been permanent until put away. I even remember a message in the hud that says you get ten seconds of resistance or something but its been a while since i've used it so I could be just making that part up i guess
Should be 10 seconds until it takes effect for exploit prevention, then permanent until stowed - was the intent from its inception. Never seen it drop while equipped, but it's had some issues applying in NOV2015, particularly if it's equipped before joining a map, and once in while just seemed to fizzle when being swapped rapidly.

Soup is the biggest offender of all time. Now everyone essentially has infinite mana. Soup would be fine if you couldn't just buy infinite quantities at Edana for 200 gold but somehow you either don't see how it's going to cause every new monster to assume players have infinite mana, or don't think that is a problem.
Infinite manna in 3 minute bursts in a non-stacking item. Seems to be WAI. No monster rules have been changed since its inception, but certain mappers started going crazy with some multipliers, so it was added as the new bail out standard.

The clouds are way harder than Maldora. Aside from the yellow crystal the shadow forms are the hardest thing in lodagond, but you can't really compare those things since the yellow crystal isn't a mob. the shadow forms are the hardest mob.
He has six times the DPS, ten times the HP, more tricks, and I can't legit solo him. *shrug*

Though yes, that damned yellow crystal sequence the real bitch, but mapper insisted it's WAI, and clearly it's been done... Also think it glitched out last time I tried it, zapping me back to Edana when it spawned, need to examine...

Nothing ruins nostalgia more than a game full of god-like players. It's the bane of every online RPG, from Everquest, to WoW and it's the reason why WoW Classic and Everquest Classic are so popular right now.
Classic has the same problem with player level differential that the current versions do. Any player with double the levels over another is effectively god. Thankfully, we don't deal with a lotta PVP, but our high end players still end up blowing through expendables to deal with the hardest maps, and don't cakewalk them too badly, save maybe when a lot of them get together (even then, tend to be some casualties). Cakewalking lower end maps is a fundamental feature of most level progressive RPG's.

Granted, I'd like to have more situations where that'd be mitigated so more folks could play beneficially together, but that's another topic we've been over a million times, and on the "epic tasks" list...

That's not true, before they were clouds they were bugged out horrors that crashed maps but were not nearly so tough, and the ring of lightning resistance had long been out before they were turned into clouds to stop the map from crashing. It also bothers me they are still called shriekmaws when they no longer have maws, but that's another discussion.
Crow requested they be swapped out for Shadowforms to create a holy weapon gate to bump Lodagond back up to late game content (albeit, dark works as well, though you aren't apt to have the best options there). Think the name didn't get swapped on em all though, true.

Actually, most games have a limited amount of choices a player can make with all the items he has. For example, most games don't let you equip every single ring or accessory at once, they make you choose, which allows for at least some semblance of character customization. MSC does not have this at all and just consists of every player wearing the same equipment and spamming the same attack, usually some silly combo like infinite soup+bearclaws.
Generally you have to swap out some equipment, and use some expendables and/or spells. Very few games make you completely reconfigure your whole character for every encounter, though yes, would like more configuration options, and yes, we'll eventually get us a class system going - framework for it is there, at least.
 

Cyclophammer

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Blue Magic are the pussy clouds. The real ones are spawning with the Stonemasons. I would also agree that Maldora is by far easier than cloudybois. He's a kind man allowing you to just rest whenever you please.
Soups are pretty broken. Bear Claws are really only good against Maldora. But Infernal Demon Claws if you have at least some SC. By far highest DPS weapon.
Also stupid that the best MA weapons scale off SC and not MA.
Anyways this has already gone far too off topic. My point was, that a lot of stuff can be done by just adjusting values. Which doesn't really seem to taxing. But if every suggestion is just going to be met by someone who doesn't experience the game, it's all talk on dev ears.

Also it takes a day to render a 3min video in 720p? Maybe not only the game design is antiquated.
Sure, I'll dump a day and rare opportunity at weekend development for encoding video
 

Thothie

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Maybe not only the game design is antiquated.
Meh, I tend to only have 2-4 hours a day where I'm awake enough to deal with this crap these days, and even then, only every few days, as I oft have to reserve those precious moments of lucidity for RL stuff. I am not well, and am on a rainbow of pills. Generally, if I have to deal with a flamewar on the forums, dev time goes to that instead, though I suppose they don't require me to be quite so alert (particularly when it's regarding something we've been over countless times - though not pointing at you there).

Since I saw some bugs with the sharks and minions that are gonna force me to go back in there anyways (latter of which I didn't fight, but they tripped some of the newer debugs when they loaded) , I'll go play with the other Shadow Forms a bit - though none of them use the Shadow_Form_Boss script, nor are using different multipliers than these (save for some DR).

Most suggestions get implemented or at least addressed, if you search the forums (even your own are 2:1), which is, in fact, part of the problem, but yeah, complaining about an item not being absolutely optimal, intentionally, is among the types that tend to fail. (And yes, oddly some of the highest DPS items in the game do require you train up more than one difficult to increase skill.)
 

Kanta

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Thothie is busy and his time is valuable.

I'm going to stop posting suggestions and flaming until the patch comes out.

So should you.
 

Thothie

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Well, no, I'd love more suggestions - actually probably gonna post up some polls soon for ideas on how to deal with certain things that need addressing before the next patch... Just, can do without the endless anger when someone doesn't get their way or starts essentially complaining about the fundamentals of MMO's in general, or otherwise starts repeatedly making demands that require a complete game redesign from the ground up. (First reply to this thread shoulda ended it, really, or at least lead to another related suggestion, but no, just rants.)

Though, yeah, really limited to what we can do just now, both in terms of time and engine limitations, so most everything complex is getting back burnered.
 

zeus9860

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Frostbow is okay as it is. The only tiny issue i have with it is the constant mana drain due to ice cage, which i believe the ice typhoon has the same issue aswell with the throw? Can't remember. Either way, not a big deal. If you want proper fire resistance, get a phoenix armour. It isn't that hard to get one, it is more down to luck honestly.

The shadows can be a pain in the ass if they are spread out and you have nowhere to run to heal, i usually just run around and shoot them down with steam xbow and blessed bolts, it is fairly quick and i rarelly have issues with this strategy. Holy lance is also good enough but takes more effort. The biggest issue on these things might be their resistances...? Holy is the only proper element to take them down with if i'm not mistaking, which makes the encounter a major pain in the ass to people that do not have adequate holy items to kill these things in a fair way.

Minor rant on game scaling/balance (tl;dr of the next 2 paragraphs at the bottom)
As for what oyster said about certain methods breaking the game (ice shield and gpops for example), this is true, but there is also the fact that, when your character is strong enough and with decent gear, you can handle most of these maps without that much of an issue. The_wall for example, i still consider this map a 35-45 map, but if you play this map with a 50 character, the map is less of a problem for you and you will not require the use of potions that much to get through. This is, if you are using your brain while playing, some people in this community like to put on AOB and rush to their deaths mindlessly a 100 times to kill something, i have seen this many times before. I would consider some of the new npc mechanics to be more game breaking than the potions (elf with tork bow, hxbow, litch tongue with constant freezes even with 50-75% resist, ihotohr with his OP beam staff that can push you back to the moon, overflow your character and even stop you from moving with the cage bind, additionally the summons are there to block your path, which is yet another stupid thing if you get cornered by undeads and ihotohr comes over to say hi with his OP barrier).

Of course, this does not fix the problem, it just somewhat properly adjusts the difficulty of some maps when you are 5 levels higher than the requirement. Lodagond 1 used to be a pain in the ass but once you hit lvl 30, it would get balanced and at 35 it would be much easier (nowadays it is an easy map for high level players, you can literally destroy the boss at the same level range with stronger items), then came the series, same issue with lodagond-4 afterwards, lodagond-4 became too easy at some point, the only real issue with the map is the random transition issues or crashes. And well, the yellow crystal, f*ck that thing with the instant charging bludgeons and mindlessly roaming undead that ignore you and try to mindlessly approach the crystal. My advice is to make maps with the intention of using potions at the entry level and have a proper requirement for less potions or no potions at all. If you release a map for lvl 45 players, make it so that the map is doable by lvl 35 players using potions, not the other way around. Right now, maps are being done with a mindset of lvl 40 with potions and lvl 50+ without potions. This does not apply to all maps, some maps are just too broken (undercliffs takes the pole position on this one).

tl;dr on the previous 2 paragraphs:
Potions should essentially be used in tough situations or for underleveled players that are at risk of getting destroyed in the map they are playing.

This cycle will keep on going and will not stop, so it's just best to do it like this, it feels like an artificial balance. It's not proper, but it is something at least. And stop making rainbow populated maps, nobody likes those. Specially with the extras that also nobody likes (bone abomination, greater earth elemental, stone ogres), it's just the perfect combination to ruin a map for anyone deciding to play it, it displays all kinds of "NOPE" sings all over the place. Let's not forget the crappy loot system and method to get the loot once you beat the boss(es), which is definetly the cherry on top.
 

Cyclophammer

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complaining about an item not being absolutely optimal, intentionally, is among the types that tend to fail
intentional bad game design.
I'm going to stop posting suggestions and flaming until the patch comes out.

So should you.
And when the patch arrives, there is still shitty game design.

Maybe if there wasn't this adamant "Boomer" mentality, there could be a bit variety. But I guess using three weapon for 90% of the playtime is bueno.

some people in this community like to put on AOB and rush to their deaths mindlessly a 100 times to kill something
And I will keep doing it. I just call them AOB phases. Why would I waste precious resources, when I can just widdle them down bit by bit.

fundamentals of MMO's
And thats the point. MMO players in particular will optimize the ever living shit out of the game. This is why good game design keep players from ruining their own fun.

But muh Morrowind

Anyways close this Thread~
 

zeus9860

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But I guess using three weapon for 90% of the playtime is bueno.
This statement would have made sense back in 2008-2010, back then, you only 3 items that were usefull. Blood drinker, neckhunter (it came later) and bludgeon hammer (and well felewyn shard, but it was useless in most situations and limited, also the "random" vanishing felewyn shards back then made people not use these things and instead bank them out of fear of loosing them). This remained a fact untill the day we got the_wall, which implemented the torkbows, which were initially garbage tier weapons for the level requirement it had, then it got properly buffed into actual usefull items. Imagine doing the early days the_wall runs with those 3 items only, it was a major pain in the ass back then. Attempting to solo the thing was stupid without having knowledge to face every encounter in that map. The biggest driving factor nowadays is damage points, not actual damage output. So people have the tendency to spam le torkbow with firebrand and demon blood or infernal claws with soup and be like "i am the top dog here".

In the current stage of the game, there is a larger selection of decent weapons at most levels. Of course, you will always have a few items that are stronger or more usefull than the other ones. But this is completly normal, there has to be difference between the items. Swords used to be the "master race" item choice for a long ass time untill neck hunter was introduced, it created balance. Right now, this spot is split between small arms and polearms. With some other weapons being almost as good (bear claws, demonic bh, infernal claws are some examples).

And I will keep doing it. I just call them AOB phases. Why would I waste precious resources, when I can just widdle them down bit by bit.
That does not make you any better at the game. If you keep doing it like that, the problem isn't really anyone elses but yours. You can adapt to most situations in this game with proper thinking. You can slow down enemies, dizzy them, stun them, use shields to reduce incoming damage and block, you can heal while doing these things aswell. Back in the day, we were often forced to use stuns and slows to be able to kill something without getting killed first. Nowadays, people don't really stun that much anymore since there is hardly any need for that as power progression became better for the player (while also getting worst for the npcs with new crazy hax).

Overall this thread is nothing more than just bait for public humiliation. This community is always hyped up in terms of drama, since the very first day i joined these forums and to this day, drama has been the main factor behind this community. It used to be much more frequent back in the day, the game was also more populated back then. People just decided to move on and play other things.
 

MS:C community

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Wew, what a thread. Where to even begin...

The shadow forms, I guess...?

Back in the day, lodagond-4 crashed more often than a bumper car. Apparently, having elder horrors cast poison cloud slightly above or on the water surface in the 'blue magic room' caused this. It was easy to tell, because the instant you'd hear the poison cloud cast sound effect and/or see the first poison cloud appear, the server would die.

Dozens of players reported this.

"Elder horror poison clouds near the blue room water insta-crash the server!"

The issue was pretty much ignored and downplayed (just like the ethereal vermicular's horror egg precache bug in cleicert got downplayed for monYEARS on end). Quite frustrating, because this all happened when DEC2010a was brand new. Read: forge items. Read: tomahawks. Everybody and their mother wanted to farm lodagond-4 for tomahawks.

As a good friend of mine put it, way back in January 2011 (date of image below):

Stizz_tomahawks.png

But then, finally, finally, lodagond-4 got fixed. And by fixed I mean: made harder. Suddenly there were shadow forms in the blue room and boy did they hurt. But they're child's play compared to the two buffed shadow forms ("Ethereal Shriekmaws") in the courtyard.

Speaking of these particular shadow forms in the courtyard...
I'll go play with the other Shadow Forms a bit - though none of them use the Shadow_Form_Boss script, nor are using different multipliers than these (save for some DR).
Wrong.

Here's one from the blue magic room:
Code:
{
"origin" "2877 -1282 -456"
"targetname" "horror"
"spawnarea" "horrors"
"killtarget" "t2block2"
"angles" "0 0 0"
"scriptfile" "monsters/shadow_form"
"lives" "1"
"defscriptfile" "monsters/giantbat"
"spawnchance" "100"
"delayhigh" "300"
"delaylow" "30"
"classname" "msmonster_giantbat"
}
Here's one from the courtyard:
Code:
{
"origin" "208 1840 320"
"dmgmulti" "1.75"
"params" "make_ghost;add_1000_health;fifty_armor"
"title" "Ethereal Shriekmaw"
"spawnarea" "fwave2"
"killtarget" "t2block2"
"angles" "0 180 0"
"scriptfile" "monsters/shadow_form"
"lives" "1"
"defscriptfile" "monsters/giantbat"
"spawnchance" "100"
"delayhigh" "300"
"delaylow" "30"
"classname" "msmonster_giantbat"
}
The relevant part here is "dmgmulti" "1.75". The shadow forms in the courtyard hit significantly harder than those in the blue magic room.

Fact.

It's been like that since the dawn of time (read: DEC2010a) but I imagine one might miss this kind of stuff if devcmd slayall evil is the modus operandi for testing maps.

Anyway, back to the blue magic room, to the regular (read: slightly weaker) shadow forms. Hilarious video. Here's what actual MS:C gods do:
Since shadow forms don't indicate that they're about to use their lightning attack (as decent game design dictates), the #1 strategy is to stay as far away from them as possible. They do 3x the damage when they're up close as I'm sur... as I hope you know.

Next up: grab a steam crossbow (or heavy crossbow back in the days) and spam blessed bolts. To make sure the shadow forms don't shove you around and screw up your aim too much, just hold down the +use key. Goldsource!
Or, better yet, latch yourself onto the ladder. Ladders in Goldsource are, after all, giant glue strips. Nothing will ever move you while you're touching a ladder except WASD / Space. Goldsource!

Using any half-decently equipped/leveled character, it's a fair bit easier to solo Maldora than the five or six shadow forms in the blue magic room or the pair of buffed shadow forms in the courtyard.
Sure, Maldora takes longer, but I definitely don't have to be nearly as careful. I can get my ass zapped real quick by the shadow forms, because they fly (and get you stuck if they land on your head, 10/10 for that). On the other hand, if Maldora starts spamming lightning, he's completely stationary. I can just edge around the corner of one of the many pillars in the bossroom and pop some caps in his ass (read: ranged weaponry).

[side note: every stationary NPC in the game can be exploited this way]

If the shadow forms were really put in-game per Crow's request, so that Lodagond would be late game content again (first time I ever hear this story), he should've just had you replace Maldora himself with a bunch of shadow forms. They're really quite a bit tougher.

The only reason I can't take down Maldora in 40 seconds flat is because he spazzes around 75% of the time. If he'd just stand still and take his beating like the bitch he is, I'd kill him through his death barrier. My super beefy 1200+ HP character, combined with ice shield, gold armor and GPoP (the Holy Trinity of MS:C) laughs at his death barrier.

Speaking of the death barrier: back in... 2011 somewhere, when the lodagond-4 crashing finally got fixed, Maldora's death barrier was broken. Or rather: the FX worked fine, but the actual damage was gone. I remember this being the case for several patches, even months on end. People who are usually on the side of the dev team, people who gladly report exploits, turned a blind eye. I distinctly remember FER, amongst others, punching Maldora in the face, fully aware of the fact that they should be getting vaporized by his death barrier while doing so. I've always seen this as justified revenge for the many crashes and lost runs. The realization that pretty much every MS:C veteran was completely fed up with the lodagond-4 situation can still make my day, to this very day.

Speaking of vaporizing bosses in 40 seconds... here's Dr. Drew, Dark_Ham and myself completely O B L I T E R A T I N G the strongest boss in the game in a mere 38 seconds. World record. Recorded on [FN], of course.

Drew, Ham and I are of course the three strongest and most skilled players in the game (I say this without any modesty whatsoever). Granted, we were all 100% overdosing on just about every potion there is, but judging by your posts in this thread, I can only say: WAI.

Oh and here's me soloing (!) tier VI of undercliffs -- the crystal puzzle and boss, no less -- in less than four minutes. Also recorded on [FN], also definitely 100% WAI.

Anyway, enough of me showing off and demonstrating that the game works as intended. Back to things posted in this thread.

Cleicert and its assorted rewards got released in the AUG2007a patch. The only tough lightning monsters in the entire game back then were mostly in Cleicert. Sure, there was that fragment of Maldora in Wicard Oven (map got released shortly after MAY2007a) but Lodagond didn't even exist yet. That was introduced somewhere around OCT2007a. So tl;dr: when the ring of lightning resistance, as it was called back then, was introduced, the formerly #1 notorious lightning spammer, Runegahr, didn't even exist yet.

and most of the truly nasty lightning mobs (including most of those on Lodagond) were in the game before it was.
So obviously, this isn't true. Not even remotely.

Oyster's point stands. Every lightning monster that has ever been introduced since then has been designed with the existence of the ring of grounding in mind. The insane lightning damage that even regular shadow forms do is one of the many proofs of that.

Even for this, a quick scan of FN tells me there's 2,266 characters with either one of the items unique to the Lodagond-4, or one of the five Sorc_Villa items crafted using them (multiples of them)
Yeah, I kinda stumbled across a lot of Felewyn symbols and therefore shards so a whole bunch of blood drinkers were needed to get some unholy blades (good item sink by the way; well played). A total of 117 Felewyn shards, or at least those are the ones I kept count of (shards, not symbols). I guess now you know what the Roman numeral "CXVII" in J-M v2.5.5's signature means.

Anyway, just because there's a whole lot of forge items flying around, doesn't mean Cyclophammer's point is invalid: fighting the shadow forms just isn't engaging. People beat that part of the map only out of pure necessity. Hell, people beat Lodagond out of pure necessity. The novelty of Lodagond has worn off years ago, despite it definitely being way above average, in terms of gameplay and visuals. I hope you don't ever put another forge item in the game that requires tomahawks.

Speaking of maps:
Now that we have near 100 maps
Delete gertenhell, island1, islesofdread2_old, lostcaverns, ms_caves, ms_quest, ms_soccer, ms_swamp, ms_town, ms_underworldv2, orcplace2_beta, pvp_archery, pvp_arena, pvp_canyons, unrest and unrest2_beta1 and noone would even notice.

The next thing that caught my attention:
Albeit, the "best" armor is just 10% better than the next four below it
It's quotes like these that really make me question your "I've played the game more than any of you"-attitude.
  • Golden armor: 60%
  • Fire aura: 55%
  • Phoenix armor: 55%
  • Acid plate: 50%
  • Envenomed plate: 50% <---- this armor is a piece of shit btw, but I'm thankful it got addressed in this thread
  • Dark armor: 50%
  • Knight's armor: 50%
Closely observing the above values, we can come to the sound conclusion that the "best" armor is just 5% better than the next two below it.

Moving on:
Every skill in this video is at level 40. Hardly representative of the level range Lodagond was intended for.
Silly Oyster. Levels don't actually mean anything, nor does logic. Remember back when the level cap was at 40 and the_wall got released? I'll just let Mrannoyus do the talking:
level_40_plus.png

...

But I digress. It's obviously safe to say that the game works fine, no single player weapon/item is overpowered, no single monster is overpowered (Greater Earth Elemental VI just WAI) and alternative facts exist.
 
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TheOysterHippopotami

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I am thrilled to see this conversation taking place. Now everyone can see what it's like to try to explain something to Thothie and then have every single one of your points summarily deflected with the most out of touch answers imaginable.

It's intended for 35, didn't lose more than half my HP.
Functionally it's closer to 25. The only enemy that could possibly be considered tough for a level 35 player would indeed be those shadow forms. Everything else would be super easy.

As intended. (Albeit, the "best" armor is just 10% better than the next four below it, and it's not the best helm for the job.) But yes, you are expected to have farmed out CotBG and acquired mighty collection of potions, well before you face Lodagond, and have at least the best of everything you can get at a maxed 35, plus some hand me downs (plus help, if you intend to go to the end). ...and of course you have the Ring of Grounding (as Cyc suggested), if not a straight up lodestone potion for pure immunity.
I'm afraid to say this out loud but if that is working as intended, then the rest of the series is not. Everything else in that series can be handled by a patient level 25 solo player without any of those extra goodies, except the shadow forms and yellow crystal.


If you don't all have that, you shouldn't be able to get past it.
You can get past everything else though, and you could have gotten past the horrors that the clouds were replaced with assuming the map didn't crash.

Infinite manna in 3 minute bursts in a non-stacking item. Seems to be WAI. No monster rules have been changed since its inception, but certain mappers started going crazy with some multipliers, so it was added as the new bail out standard.
This is certifiably insane.

He has six times the DPS, ten times the HP, more tricks, and I can't legit solo him. *shrug*
This is what happens when you test everything with cheats and "understand" maps by analyzing an entity table, rather than actually playing. No matter what the numbers say on paper, Maldora is ten times easier than the shadow forms. There's more to a fight than mere DPS, and Maldora gives you plenty of time to recover from a mistake whereas that's not really true with the shadow forms. Also the shadow forms do way, way more damage than maldora...

Classic has the same problem with player level differential that the current versions do. Any player with double the levels over another is effectively god.
Players don't "become Gods" simply because they are stronger than other players. You completely forget about the aesthetics behind every player walking around with the flashiest armors and weapons, pew pewing the flashiest spells.

It seems like games are literally just numbers to you... Whenever you get a complaint about how the game feels you always respond with some gobbledygook about entity tables and numbers and coding. You will never get a feel for this game by looking at that stuff.
Generally you have to swap out some equipment, and use some expendables and/or spells. Very few games make you completely reconfigure your whole character for every encounter
Most/many games would not even give you the option of reconfiguring a character for every fight. In plenty of games you start by choosing a class or playstyle and are stuck with it. I certainly hope when the class system is released you can't just press a button and swap out your class... That would completely defeat the purpose to begin with.


I would consider some of the new npc mechanics to be more game breaking than the potions (elf with tork bow, hxbow, litch tongue with constant freezes even with 50-75% resist,
This stuff is happening because it is assumed that players are all decked out with potions. Enemies would not be this annoying if players hadn't been made too powerful too quickly to begin with. Now we are caught in a feedback loop that Thothie apparently thinks is WAI.

intentional bad game design.
Quoted for emphasis.
people have the tendency to spam le torkbow with firebrand and demon blood or infernal claws with soup and be like "i am the top dog here".
This is one of the lamest aspects of the late game in my opinion.

The relevant part here is "dmgmulti" "1.75". The shadow forms in the courtyard hit significantly harder than those in the blue magic room.

Fact.

It's been like that since the dawn of time (read: DEC2010a) but I imagine one might miss this kind of stuff if devcmd slayall evil is the modus operandi for testing maps.
Quoted for emphasis.


my super beefy 1200+ HP character, combined with ice shield, gold armor and GPoP (the Holy Trinity of MS:C) laughs at his death barrier.
Quoted for emphasis.

Drew, Ham and I are of course the three strongest and most skilled players in the game (I say this without any modesty whatsoever). Granted, we were all 100% overdosing on just about every potion there is, but judging by your posts in this thread, I can only say: WAI.

Oh and here's me soloing (!) tier VI of undercliffs -- the crystal puzzle and boss, no less -- in less than four minutes. Also recorded on [FN], also definitely 100% WAI.
Quoted for emphasis.

(Greater Earth Elemental VI just WAI)
Well if there's any good news to come out of this, that's no longer intended (i try to listen at least a little bit to people who do play the game). The bad news is, we have no idea when the updated version of the map he's on is getting released.
 
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Thothie

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Closely observing the above values, we can come to the sound conclusion that the "best" armor is just 5% better than the next two below it.
So... Making my off handed point? (Granted, additionally, the "lesser" armors would be better, since the NOV2015 Shadow Form can apparently take acid damage.)

Speaking of vaporizing bosses in 40 seconds... here's Dr. Drew, Dark_Ham and myself completely O B L I T E R A T I N G the strongest boss in the game in a mere 38 seconds. World record.
So, is the game too easy, or too hard? I'd expect a team of the best players in the game, fully decked out and potioned up, to make short work of most bosses, so yeah, WAI (I mean hell, the ModDB has had a video of Keldorn soloing the same dragon in a few minutes for years - and if you're that skilled and that heavily equipped, you should be able to.)... but if you think the game isn't hard enough, why are you on about the Shadow Forms?

So obviously, this isn't true. Not even remotely.

Oyster's point stands. Every lightning monster that has ever been introduced since then has been designed with the existance of the ring of grounding in mind. The insane lightning damage that even regular shadow forms do is one of the many proofs of that.
Most of the mobs used in Lodagond existed prior to the lightning ring, and all the new lightning mobs follow the same damage formulas they used. Shadow Forms are very late game beasts, that were added to boost Lodagond to late game content again, and they did their job, to a degree, but given the number of tomahawks that made their way into the world, maybe not well enough. But yes, Runghar, Ihotor, and the Lighting Pharaoh are all boss flagged, and thus all do a lot more lightning damage. Random minion elementals, lightning skeles, and like, do the same elemental damage as other elemental critters in their tier (though it's true, most lightning beasts are late game).

Could convert Shadow Forms to dark damage though, if you think that'd help.

The relevant part here is "dmgmulti" "1.75". The shadow forms in the courtyard hit significantly harder than those in the blue magic room.
That's a fair point - missed that in the entity table (not sure why dmgmulti got shifted to the top), but if the regular ones can't drop me below 50% health, then adding another +75% damage shouldn't be fatal, especially given that there's two instead of four, anymore than they were in the first hundred tests, doubly so considering you've two rooms to work with to get em stuck. But I suppose I can check again when I get back...

People who are usually on the side of the dev team, people who gladly report exploits, turned a blind eye.
Lots of people reported it. Damage was removed from the effect barrier due to crashes, until we came up with a new way to implement it.

Though I do have to take back what I said about Maldora in general, as looking back on it, did solo him a few dozen times in testing (so many ages ago), just not when walking up and wailing on him, as you seem to be able to do.

But yes, "exploiting for revenge"...

Functionally it's closer to 25. The only enemy that could possibly be considered tough for a level 35 player would indeed be those shadow forms. Everything else would be super easy.
Then apparently we need more Shadow Forms. Never was intended to be 25. It's on the map as 40-50+, which hasn't been updated in ages, just there's two lulling maps in the middle.

Now we are caught in a feedback loop that Thothie apparently thinks is WAI.
Well, it's not ideal, but it is as intended. Ideal would require scrapping the game and starting over, so it's power creep city. Eventually folks will cruise through the current highest difficulty maps without potioning up, and then some new tier that requires even more types potions, spells, and equipment will rear its ugly head, rinse and repeat. Only saving grace there is an end game plan to cap at 60.



Criticising the game is easy, just, as usual, seeing lots of self-contradictory complaints and rants, but no actual suggestions... Should probably just take the one bit of actual advice I keep getting, from the folks near me who don't play the game, and quit bothering.
 

TheOysterHippopotami

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So, is the game too easy, or too hard?
It's way too easy with the Holy Trinity of MSC (gold armor + gpop + ice shield) and way too hard without it.
but if you think the game isn't hard enough, why are you on about the Shadow Forms?
As far as I can tell the point people are making isn't really about the shadow forms specifically as much as it is about how it appears that you don't really play the game in a manner that is in any way similar to the average player and so when you deflect their complaints you come off as out of touch or clueless. The shadowform discussion was just a way of pointing that out.

Then apparently we need more Shadow Forms, never was intended to be 25. It's on the map as 40-50+, which hasn't been updated in ages, just there's two lulling maps in the middle.
To be clear, I personally don't have much of an issue with the shadow forms in lodagond. The difficulty spike they present does seem very out of place and messes up the pacing of the map, and also overshadows (pun intended) the final boss, but that's not the end of the world.

However, the way in which you tackled the shadowform in that video demonstrates, at the very least, that you don't play the game in a fashion that is consistent with the average player. That video, combined with some of your comments in this thread, lends credence to the suspicion that you never really play the game and just test everything with cheats and maxed out test characters. If that's true it's no wonder the game is as frustrating as it is.


Ideal would require scrapping the game and starting over, so it's power creep city.
That's not entirely true. It's possible to go back and insert a better tiered progression without wiping characters now that we have more maps, especially if it's done through questing rather than farming treasure chests ad nauseum. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done about the artificially beefed up mobs though, but you can certainly stop making it worse in the future.

Eventually folks will cruise through the current highest difficulty maps without potioning up, and then some new tier that requires even more types potions, spells, and equipment will rear its ugly head.
Why do that when you could instead just start doing story driven content? Why does the reward for every new map have to be a new piece of OP loot? Why can't players be rewarded with access to a secret map or secret room, or "movie" maps, or scenes with NPCs acting out various antics, or even a ticket to a unique play at Deralia Theatre that you couldn't view otherwise?

Criticising the game is easy, just, as usual, seeing lots of self-contradictory complaints and rants, but no actual suggestions...
For real? See above for the same suggestions that I've been harping to you about for ten+ years. In fact I've done way more than make suggestions, I've done my best to put those suggestions into reality, only for you to swoop in at the last second and demand that everything I've worked towards be neutered into "more of the same". Any attempt to reason with you is then met with the same type of slippery "logic" that you've presented in this thread, essentially brushing off everyone with a simple "WAI".

People are trying to tell you that they don't really like what you consider "WAI".
 
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Thothie

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It's way too easy with the Holy Trinity of MSC (gold armor + gpop + ice shield) and way too hard without it.
So the late game content requires "the holy trinity" (and then some, judging by the videos), as one would expect. Any suggestion here?

As far as I can tell the point people are making isn't really about the shadow forms specifically as much as it is about how it appears that you don't really play the game in a manner that is in any way similar to the average player and so when you deflect their complaints you come off as out of touch or clueless. The shadowform discussion was just a way of pointing that out.

However, the way in which you tackled the shadowform in that video demonstrates, at the very least, that you don't play the game in a fashion that is consistent with the average player. That video, combined with some of your comments in this thread, lends credence to the suspicion that you never really play the game and just test everything with cheats and maxed out test characters. If that's true it's no wonder the game is as frustrating as it is.
Ran through them, doing what I expect players to do and have, and have seen players do exactly that.

Though, if anything, I'm thinking we need to nix AoB, and go back to mobs regaining all their health when they kill the last player who hit them, if repeated death is not making it clear they are doing something wrong. (Though that last bit was undone, along with several other things, as it just made the l337 players complain no end when the less adept players joined and "fed the mobs" ...and being among the less adept players myself...)

Granted, I have seen the AoB storm rush as well - just not on Lodagond. (Umulak, on the other hand, has oft been depressing to watch.)

That's not entirely true. It's possible to go back and insert a better tiered progression without wiping characters now that we have more maps, especially if it's done through questing rather than farming treasure chests ad nauseum. Unfortunately there's not much that can be done about the artificially beefed up mobs though.
It'd mean, at the very least, going back and redoing all the maps, items, treasure chests, and monsters, and a whole lotta nerfing, that would lead to yet more endless rants, followed by a new set of rants. As opposed to the standard, "if sh*t gets too hard you blow some expendables (or go back and get the equipment yer missing).", that at least lets us actually do something, with the same old rants.

Why do that when you could instead just start doing story driven content? Why does the reward for every new map have to be a new piece of OP loot? Why can't players be rewarded with access to secret areas, or "movie" maps or scenes with NPCs acting out various antics?
Well, it'd be nice if I was allowed to, but again, no new good loot, means more endless rants (indeed, generates more than anything else). I *was* hoping to get the lore system in by the end of the month, but then this happened... It's one thing to get stopped by the string space... But yes, we have endless plans for lore and story, that just keep back burnered and delayed, over and over again, by stuff like this.

For real? See above for the same suggestions that I've been harping to you about for ten+ years. In fact I've done way more than make suggestions, I've done my best to put those suggestions into reality, only for you to swoop in at the last second and demand that everything I've worked towards be neutered into "more of the same". Any attempt to reason with you is then met with the same type of slippery "logic" that you've presented in this thread, essentially brushing off everyone with a simple "WAI".

People are trying to tell you that they don't really like what you consider "WAI".
I don't like what I consider WAI, but I don't see a single actual suggestion from you in this whole bible of text you've written, nor in the other dozens you've sent to my inbox. Just lots of complaints, and lots of "It should be done like this" rants, that involve redoing everything from the ground up, removing popular game functions that have been here for over fifteen years that the game can't work without, or complaining about fundamental aspects of MMO's.

In the end, doesn't really seem like it's about the game at all.
 

MS:C community

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Criticising the game is easy, just, as usual, seeing lots of self-contradictory complaints and rants, but no actual suggestions... Should probably just take the one bit of actual advice I keep getting, and quit bothering.
Alright, here's an actual suggestion: noone and nothing in the game should ever have more than, say, 40% resistance to [insert damage type here]. Ever.

Gold armor should give 30% damage reduction. That leaves room for a few better armors for the endgame. Whatever piece of armor you'd hypothetically get in the final maps of the game, when you're level 60, should give you 40% damage reduction. That's almost half. That's an insane amount.

Regular protection potions should give 2% damage reduction (yes, two percent) and they should stack additively with magical shields and armor, not multiplicatively. And obviously resistance stacking should cap at 40%. Found the [endgame Loreldian 40% armor]? Drinking protection potions is now useless.
You have the lightning ring capped to 75% right now so I guess this suggestion should be doable. And greater protection potions? Maybe 4 or 5% damage reduction, but definitely not more. And the duration should be cut in half, at the very very least.

Lesser ice shield and ice shield damage reduction should scale, very slowly, off of SC (with LIS capping out its usefulness around SC 7), but obviously they too should be heavily nerfed. The 50% damage reduction that stacks multiplicatively, as it is right now, with everything else, is just insane.

Hell, I'm in favor of you nerfing every single player weapon and item in the entire game

IF

you also nerf every NPC in the entire game. Fire reaver immune to fire? Makes no sense whatsoever. And don't get me even started on that fire reaver walking in lava in catacombs [vomit emoji]. "It's magic!!!1!" oh please. Fire reavers should have 25% fire resistance (and some reduction to blunt/slash/pierce, i.e. armor) and that's about it. Again, the absolute maximum, 40%, should be reserved for epic-tier bosses.

It's way too easy with the Holy Trinity of MSC (gold armor + gpop + ice shield) and way too hard without it.
This is the real problem.
The above statement can be generalized to: the game is way too easy when high on potions and way too hard when not using them. There's no playable middle ground. And obviously there should be some limit to the number of potions one can drink in a certain time span.

Back in the days I used to be afraid of posting stuff like this, because out of the whole "nerf players AND nerf monsters" message you'd magically only pick up the "nerf players" part. But now that the game is so broken that I can easily steamroll every map, no matter what is thrown at me, I no longer really care. I doubt any future one-sided nerfs (player-only) will impact my character's strength even remotely.

And yes, I realize rebalancing the entire game is a monumental task, but to me it seems like the only way to get out of the corner we're backed in now. As far as I still care, this is the best suggestion I can give.

Could convert Shadow Forms to dark damage though, if you think that'd help.
Then apparently we need more Shadow Forms.
Also, if these comments are veiled threats or something, they're not very good ones. I'll just use MS:C's Holy Trinity and bulldozer my way through them. Effortlessly.
 
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Thothie

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So, you think if we just cap all resistances/vulnerabilities globally at 40% (both mobs and players), the game will fix itself, and no one will start another endless rant? Cuz that wouldn't be all that hard, with the new elemental resistance system and all, but I suspect it'd make a whole lotta items worthless, and a whole lotta the game unplayable, with no way out, in addition to nixing half of the mechanics. As it is now, at least if something unpassable, you have a way out. (Though I suppose there'd still be demon/vampire blood.)

(Also seems last time I threatened to only let you have one resistance potion running at a time, there was mass rebellion.)
 
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