Elves or Bludgeons

[Gurluas]

Since people keeps changing their mind, lets try to use democracy and see whether Bludgeons or Elves wins. The winner gets to keep Nashalrath canonically.

I will list Pros and Cons for each:

Bludgeons:
Pros:
- Looks more menacing
- Represents better an ancient threat

Cons:
- Does not really fit in an ornate architectural marvel
- Has only one appearance
- Does not look as evil as they should


Elves:
Pros:
- Elves fits the city better
- The lore feels much more interesting with elves
- Elves have different appearances, almost every mob has its own model, including Hashalgath with their own special weapon
- Elves are lorewise more organized and the whole item, necromancy, witchcraft image fits them better
- Elves have many new interesting sounds

Cons:
- Elves may look less menacing
- Elves would at that point be so desperate that they would not stay and fight

For those not knowing what the Depth elves look like here are some pictures:
The hairless one is the standard depth elf, the one with hair is the poison depth elf, and finally the male one is Hashalgath.

 

[HumanSteak]

I didn't vote because I have another idea. We could keep the current Nashalrath for now. Until Thothie actually wants to put elves in without pestering him to do it, then make it a different map with elves and new lewts. I'd like the one with elves to be a harder map, as if it was the first run through the well defended city, and the current one with the bludgeons would be as if some random bludgeons set in after the elves were defeated. Good idea y/n?

 

[zeus9860]

Why not just make it look like the_wall, bludgeons and undeads vs elves vs spectators... err i mean players. Though i think the map would need a difficulty boost aswell if it were to be changed in such a way. (Not sure if this makes any sense.)

Or release 2 nashalaraths with different populations set in each, guess this would apply humansteak's idea for an explanation to why we have 2 similiar maps with few changes from one to another. Plus this would make the maps more rewarding in the end if both maps had different creatures in it and unique sets of items, and getting said items in a semi complex way like the_wall(example: 4 unique items per map with possibly same drop rates for each), that requires a couple of runs to get the items we want.

I also won't vote in this poll, but im sort of more inclined to the bludgeons after seeing that ugly ass elf image on the other thread... >_<

 

[Gurluas]

This is a storyline map not "who makes the best battle"..Nashalrath wont have both creatures there, its either Bludgeons or Depth Elves, the lore will be written accordingly.
and eventually Thothie has to release the update as the map is horribly buggy and does NOT currently represent what it was supposed to be.

The Elves use the same animation set as the Bludgeons so whatever he chooses it wont be hard for him to change.
Please vote for what you prefer in the map

 

[J]

FYI everyone, the updated/fixed map that has been waiting for a release for a while currently contains elves. The bludgeons have already been replaced, and to go back you'd have to re-replace the elves with bludgeons. That's partly why I'd rather stick with elves. However, since it was Gurluas who did most of the bludgeon-to-elf replacing, and since I'm unlikely to do the re-replacing, I don't really mind.

 

[Gurluas]

FYI everyone, the updated/fixed map that has been waiting for a release for a while currently contains elves. The bludgeons have already been replaced, and to go back you'd have to re-replace the elves with bludgeons. That's partly why I'd rather stick with elves. However, since it was Gurluas who did most of the bludgeon-to-elf replacing, and since I'm unlikely to do the re-replacing, I don't really mind.

Renaming scripts takes 5 minutes, so no big deal tbh.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

And now for a story:
A long time ago, when Crow was working on lodagond-2, 3 and 4, I criticized him for copying certain parts of Adam Foster's "Someplace Else" into lodagond-2 and 3. Even though he did this with Adam Foster's permission, I thought it was a bad thing to do. And we all know that Crow is more than capable of making his own maps.
Thothie defended Crow to which I asked: "Hey, if I copy Someplace Else, retexture it and release it, will that count as well?"
And the reply was: "If you stick some monsters in too - YES! "

That being said: J, can I get the Nashalrath source from you plus your permission to release a custom Nashalrath that is inhabited by giant killer pizzas that have killer ants as topping, rather than salami?

I didn't vote, by the way, because the aforementioned giant killer pizza option isn't in the poll.

 

[J]

Only if the pizzas don't have mushrooms.

 

[Gurluas]

Added some more information, and you can change your vote now.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Wait what? Where is the option for 'normal' elves? Or what about 'no elves'? Nashalrath is a ruined city. It should be empty and inhabited by ethereal, evil things, like the lost or undead remnants of lor malgoriands army.

My suggestion, tell the story of a fallen city through visuals and other forms of ambiance. I think your lore might benefit greatly if it tried to describe a small part of the greater whole of daragoth. There is too much 'defining epic moment' stuff in your lore. Just tell a semi realistic, logical story about the past history of Daragoth. Don't try to define the immediate storyline of MasterSword.

Is it possible to add a "Other" option to the poll and let people throw out their own ideas for what this map could be?

Edit: That bottom male elf with the devil horns looks great. I definetly think that model should be used. Perhaps you could make him a normal sized elf and make the city inhabited by some cheesy 'Cult of Lor Malgoriand' thing? Just an idea to get away from the superfluous flair of giant elves.

 

[Dridmar]

Dear Ester, the map!

 

[Gurluas]

Wait what? Where is the option for 'normal' elves? Or what about 'no elves'? Nashalrath is a ruined city. It should be empty and inhabited by ethereal, evil things, like the lost or undead remnants of lor malgoriands army.

My suggestion, tell the story of a fallen city through visuals and other forms of ambiance. I think your lore might benefit greatly if it tried to describe a small part of the greater whole of Daragoth. There is too much 'defining epic moment' stuff in your lore. Just tell a semi realistic, logical story about the past history of Daragoth. Don't try to define the immediate storyline of MasterSword.

Is it possible to add a "Other" option to the poll and let people throw out their own ideas for what this map could be?

Edit: That bottom male elf with the devil horns looks great. I definitely think that model should be used. Perhaps you could make him a normal sized elf and make the city inhabited by some cheesy 'Cult of Lor Malgoriand' thing? Just an idea to get away from the superfluous flair of giant elves.

The inhabitants whether Bludgeon or Depth Elven, were always meant to be Malgoriand worshipers who lost contact with his forces when he was defeated by Felewyn. The city sank deep in the underground once Malgoriand was defeated and the inhabitants then learned to dig and became more mole like. Eventually they found an ancient Loreldian inter-dimensional transporter originally created using the powers of fate.The transport could open gateways to other planes of existence, one of these is one of the planes controlled by those Lost Loreldians who were banished so long ago. The inhabitants recklessly tried to use the transporter, just as they were about to reach the surface of Eswen Mallan. Thousands of Horrors, and other unimaginable creatures came out from the gateway. The inhabitants retreated closer to the city itself where Hashalgath had his big chambers. In the mean time, the digging teams had found the surface, the area known as the Halls of Carthane... However at this point they were also recalled to defend the place, so the tunnels were mostly empty. The cataclysmic invasion from the gateway started to disrupt the nature's balance and angry fire elementals also emerged. By the time the player arrives, 90% of the inhabitant's population is dead.

The lore for that map was always meant to lead to something major. Thing is...Due to bad communication that was never properly carried out. J never got my dialog in I had to work on that myself, Thothie never got to patch the map despite it being a very small fix which is basically renaming the model in 2-3 scripts, not to mention its over a year and a half overdue. And last I got kicked out of Mss for no reason despite me doing a good job. Not all of my lore was epic and big, some of it was very modest. But all of that was lost when Rickler wiped the MSS page with all I had worked on.

Thats the short summary of the current situation in Nashalrath. The fights down there have been going on for months now. Whether they are Depth Elves or Bludgeons they are both very powerful which why they have been able to hold out for so long, but at this point they are about to die out.

This explains why the map needed an update, NOTHING of that plot is reflected in the current map, but it WILL be reflected in the updated version.

 

[zeus9860]

Aren't these elves going to act like bludgeons when facing us?
If this is true, its 1 reason less for me to go with the elves but after you added those images, i sort of like the 2nd and 3rd elves which makes me want to vote for elves.

Still haven't voted, waiting for an answer to my question.

 

[Gurluas]

Aren't these elves going to act like bludgeons when facing us?
If this is true, its 1 reason less for me to go with the elves but after you added those images, i sort of like the 2nd and 3rd elves which makes me want to vote for elves.

Still haven't voted, waiting for an answer to my question.

They are gonna act like bludgeons yes. However they also have a completely new soundset, different animations, and different names. They are also the same size as bludgeons. This is explained due to their mutations and due to the dark magic they are using.

 

[zeus9860]

Hmm, i would still prefer humansteak's idea...
Going to vote for elves, it's not like i care much about this anyways.

 

[Gurluas]

Thanks, personally I prefer the elves as modelling those, getting the sounds, etc. was a bitch.

 

[Tentadrilus]

Both or neither - it should be a warzone or it should be a ghost town (literally).

Mainly because both the lore behind both makes me want to cry myself to sleep.

 

[Thothie]

Okay, I've tried to be nice, but it obviously isn't working...

Lore, isn't just about adding new creatures because you happen to think they are "kewl" at the time. There needs to be a semblance of symmetry - a conflict that reflects the collective consciousness of the cultures of realms of the world that is, in turn, some way relevant to the real world that those who are participating in the lore come from. In other words, it has to have meaning on a scale beyond itself.

Adding a bunch of giant elves ruled by a tentacle'd emoticon serves none of these functions. It, in fact, only further muddles a lore that still needs quite a bit of ironing as it is. It detracts from the balance that's already built into the lore, and obscures the messages and lessons that, as it is, are still desperately trying to escape the mire of inconsistencies to breathe their first breaths of air.

We've three Elven factions already. This, amongst the least populous of the three original enlightened races. This fractionalization is the only reason that the eldest and most powerful of the races does not rule the continent. Add a fourth, and you've got your elves so thinly spread that it's a wonder they've not gone extinct. Add the fact that it'd be one that all the other races would universally hate, and you have to wonder why the other races haven't risen up to put an end to all the elves, seeing as how they suddenly seem to be to blame for all the evils in the world.

The Lost were not simply banished, "Their souls were torn asunder, and the remains thereof scattered among the frayed and broken threads of Fate throughout the cosmos. [...] their very existence as individuals stricken from the memory of reality." They simply aren't "together enough" to return in physical form. Rather, the hatred they have for those who destroyed them lies in a permeating layer of darkness throughout all consciousness that younger sentient beings, when in the throws of similar taints of evil insanity, can draw upon for power. It's a darkness that all living beings risk falling into, but it must be of their own accord - the world, in the end, is responsible for its own fate. The undead, and even Horrors, are not brought into being without the aid of the living, be it direct or indirect, and the bulk of those soulless beings have no will of their own, beyond the instinctive need to destroy. Those few that are more, are only so because the soul of the living beings they once were, or that they were created with, are still bound to them.

...and yes, there's a line Pathos has in the earliest Lanethan story suggesting otherwise, but the subsequent lore abandons that path for the simple reason that it removes all responsibility for evil from the world and kills the overall theme of the mythology.

Even if this were not the case, The Lost certainly wouldn't return in the form of an angry-toothed hentai-fan smiley face. If you'd bothered to tie to the lore at all, maybe you could have brought back Torkalath's brother - but even then, he'd have the power of Fate, and the only ones who could do anything about such a being are the three remaining Loreldians, and as such a being would be such an extraordinary immitigable threat to everything they've built, and it'd take all three working together to destroy such a being, the players would never enter into it. The battle of the gods would ensue instantly upon the discovery of the return of such a being, and it'd be over almost as soon as it began. There's no room for armies of mortals in such a conflict. Even Lor Malgoriand himself came to end within moments after it was discovered that he was drawing on the power of The Lost, despite having raged a two-hundred year war as a servant of Torkalath.

And two hundred years isn't long enough to forge another civilization, no matter how adept at stonework the digger-elves maybe. The dwarves were at least created with that life in mind, and had eons to do it - but the frail elves? And having the added handicap of being giants at that? The attempted lore is not only devoid of any sense of place within the grand scheme; it not only violates all equilibrium and aesthetics, but violates basic logic as well.

Again, you can't just go adding new factions and gods that warp the core lore because "they sound cool" to you (especially given your demonstrated lack of discernment). The Bludgeons were bad enough, and even then, we never integrated any of the mythology behind them - they've been relegated to mere left over labor servants of the previous age, and that they only got because we got a nice model from Gaz. They serve no real purpose in the lore. The depth elves, even less so. And of course, Dog-cats are straight out - but given that you are opening portals to other realities, I'm sure that's what we're in for next.

I know that once you gain an obsession with some new creature, getting you off of it is like removing a lock-jawed pit bull - it pretty much can't be done without cracking your skull... And I'm hesitant to be this cruel only because I suspect such energy could be put into something really constructive someday, but it'll either have to constrained to some non-universe destroying scale, or wait until the day when you are mature enough to be able to see the bigger picture.

TL;DR: To quote another developer, "Your stories are bad and you should feel bad!"

Final thought: If you want to add fun new creatures to a map that you make, we're fine with that, we even encourage that, but don't expect us to bend the entire game's history around them. >_>

 

[Tentadrilus]

Check and mother-f**king mate.

 

[Dridmar]

Check and mother-f**king mate.

Haha, I laughed at your avatar after reading Thoth's post.

 

[Gurluas]

Okay, I've tried to be nice, but it obviously isn't working...

Lore, isn't just about adding new creatures because you happen to think they are "kewl" at the time. There needs to be a semblance of symmetry - a conflict that reflects the collective consciousness of the cultures of realms of the world that is, in turn, some way relevant to the real world that those who are participating in the lore come from. In other words, it has to have meaning on a scale beyond itself.

Adding a bunch of giant elves ruled by a tentacle'd emoticon serves none of these functions. It, in fact, only further muddles a lore that still needs quite a bit of ironing as it is. It detracts from the balance that's already built into the lore, and obscures the messages and lessons that, as it is, are still desperately trying to escape the mire of inconsistencies to breathe their first breaths of air.

We've three Elven factions already. This, amongst the least populous of the three original enlightened races. This fractionalization is only reason that the eldest and most powerful of the races does not rule the continent. Add a fourth, and you've got your elves so thinly spread that it's a wonder they've not gone extinct. Add the fact that it'd be one that all the other races would universally hate, and you have to wonder why the other races haven't risen up to put an end to all the elves, seeing as how they suddenly seem to be to blame for all the evils in the world.

The Lost were not simply banished, "Their souls were torn asunder, and the remains thereof scattered among the frayed and broken threads of Fate throughout the cosmos. [...] their very existence as individuals stricken from the memory of reality." They simply aren't "together enough" to return in physical form. Rather, the hatred they have for those who destroyed them lies in a permeating layer of darkness throughout all consciousness that younger sentient beings, when in the throws of similar taints of evil insanity, can draw upon for power. It's a darkness that all living beings risk falling into, but it must be of their own accord - the world, in the end, is responsible for its own fate. The undead, and even Horrors, are not brought into being without the aid of the living, be it direct or indirect, and the bulk of those soulless beings have no will of their own, beyond the instinctive need to destroy. Those few that are more, are only so because the soul of the living beings they once were, or that they were created with, are still bound to them.

...and yes, there's a line Pathos has in the earliest Lanethan story suggesting otherwise, but the subsequent lore abandons that path for the simple reason that it removes all responsibility for evil from the world and kills the overall theme of the mythology.

Even if this were not the case, The Lost certainly wouldn't return in the form of an angry-toothed hentai-fan smiley face. If you'd bothered to tie to the lore at all, maybe you could have brought back Torkalath's brother - but even then, he'd have the power of Fate, and the only ones who could do anything about such a being are the three remaining Loreldians, and as such a being would be such an extraordinary immitigable threat to everything they've built, and it'd take all three working together to destroy such a being, the players would never enter into it. The battle of the gods would ensue instantly upon the discovery of the return of such a being, and it'd be over almost as soon as it began. There's no room for armies of mortals in such a conflict. Even Lor Malgoriand himself came to end within moments after it was discovered that he was drawing on the power of The Lost, despite having raged a two-hundred year war as a servant of Torkalath.

And two hundred years isn't long enough to forge another civilization, no matter how adept at stonework the digger-elves maybe. The dwarves were at least created with that life in mind, and had eons to do it - but the frail elves? And having the added handicap of being giants at that? The attempted lore is not only devoid of any sense of place within the grand scheme; it not only violates all equilibrium and aesthetics, but violates basic logic as well.

Again, you can't just go adding new factions and gods that warp the core lore because "they sound cool" to you (especially given your demonstrated lack of discernment). The Bludgeons were bad enough, and even then, we never integrated any of the mythology behind them - they've been relegated to mere left over labor servants of the previous age, and that they only got because we got a nice model from Gaz. They serve no real purpose in the lore. The depth elves, even less so. And of course, Dog-cats are straight out - but given that you are opening portals to other realities, I'm sure that's what we're in for next.

I know that once you gain an obsession with some new creature, getting you off of it is like removing a lock-jawed pit bull - it pretty much can't be done without cracking your skull... And I'm hesitant to be this cruel only because I suspect such energy could be put into something really constructive someday, but it'll either have to constrained to some non-universe destroying scale, or wait until the day where you mature enough to be able to see the bigger picture.

TL;DR: To quote another developer, "Your stories are bad and you should feel bad!"

All that was VERY thought out, not my fault you interpreted the lore in a different way. Iposatu has always been an avatar.
I was NEVER meant to discover this lore in public and clearly you have not understood the point of it.
The Depth Elves were Torkalath elves who were morphed by the vile magic they use, magic which as you know is a weaker derivative of Fating.

Perhaps I should explain some facts to you since you clearly do not understand my interpretation of the lore nor my motive for doing this or how It was going to happen.

Nashalrath was NOT built by Depth Elves it was constructed by an elven civilization that has been living in Eswen Mallan before its corruption. It was simply taken once it fell to Lor Malgoriand. Upon his defeat by Felewyn the city sank beneath the soil of the forest. It was back then that the Depth Elves were changed. The only things the Depth elves built were the crude tunnels, and that is completely possible. The Depth Elves would have no real effect on the elves living topside since they have been there practically ever since Malgoriand was defeated.

As for the lost NEVER was it stated that they were destroyed. All lore sources points that they were banished to a different plane of existance unrelated to this one and that they could manipulate it. The Netherworld was such a plane , and Iposatu was merely an avatar, the Lost cannot exist directly in a physical plane but they can create avatars of themselves to induce influence. They cant do that in Leann but in a completely separate one they can.

Do not be so quick to smudge my lore.

 

[Echo717]

Thothie wrote stuff at gurluas

also a story or lore is about how the reader interprets it, the majority of the community interprets it in a way similiar to thothie, you interpret your lore in a different way, you either need to change your lore, or change your interpretation of it.

 

[Tentadrilus]

All that was VERY thought out, not my fault you interpreted the lore in a different way. Iposatu has always been an avatar.
I was NEVER meant to discover this lore in public and clearly you have not understood the point of it.
The Depth Elves were Torkalath elves who were morphed by the vile magic they use, magic which as you know is a weaker derivative of Fating.

Perhaps I should explain some facts to you since you clearly do not understand my interpretation of the lore nor my motive for doing this or how It was going to happen.

Nashalrath was NOT built by Depth Elves it was constructed by an elven civilization that has been living in Eswen Mallan before its corruption. It was simply taken once it fell to Lor Malgoriand. Upon his defeat by Felewyn the city sank beneath the soil of the forest. It was back then that the Depth Elves were changed. The only things the Depth elves built were the crude tunnels, and that is completely possible. The Depth Elves would have no real effect on the elves living topside since they have been there practically ever since Malgoriand was defeated.

As for the lost NEVER was it stated that they were destroyed. All lore sources points that they were banished to a different plane of existance unrelated to this one and that they could manipulate it. The Netherworld was such a plane , and Iposatu was merely an avatar, the Lost cannot exist directly in a physical plane but they can create avatars of themselves to induce influence. They cant do that in Leann but in a completely separate one they can.

Do not be so quick to smudge my lore.

Sure, it might have a good lore basis, but it doesn't stop the ideas from being terrible.

 

[jon50559]

Tothie you made me want to play MS:C with that post, here I go!

 

[Gurluas]

All that was VERY thought out, not my fault you interpreted the lore in a different way. Iposatu has always been an avatar.
I was NEVER meant to discover this lore in public and clearly you have not understood the point of it.
The Depth Elves were Torkalath elves who were morphed by the vile magic they use, magic which as you know is a weaker derivative of Fating.

Perhaps I should explain some facts to you since you clearly do not understand my interpretation of the lore nor my motive for doing this or how It was going to happen.

Nashalrath was NOT built by Depth Elves it was constructed by an elven civilization that has been living in Eswen Mallan before its corruption. It was simply taken once it fell to Lor Malgoriand. Upon his defeat by Felewyn the city sank beneath the soil of the forest. It was back then that the Depth Elves were changed. The only things the Depth elves built were the crude tunnels, and that is completely possible. The Depth Elves would have no real effect on the elves living topside since they have been there practically ever since Malgoriand was defeated.

As for the lost NEVER was it stated that they were destroyed. All lore sources points that they were banished to a different plane of existance unrelated to this one and that they could manipulate it. The Netherworld was such a plane , and Iposatu was merely an avatar, the Lost cannot exist directly in a physical plane but they can create avatars of themselves to induce influence. They cant do that in Leann but in a completely separate one they can.

Do not be so quick to smudge my lore.

Sure, it might have a good lore basis, but it doesn't stop the ideas from being terrible.

They are not terrible...They are on par with most lore here.