Dear Thothie,

[ZunWasOkayGuy]

edit: just read about the serverlist problem. nevermind me!

I've always wondered from your design with chest rewards and boss fights that you encouraged people to play together. Is this some social experiment or what?

 

[zeus9860]

Well game as been slowly progressing towards team gameplay, but it always favored solo untill this patch came. The only thing that keeps people playing together is the item farming and the recently added boss xp multipliers. Before these multipliers came it was 50/50 so to say.

Then again i think it would be best if this game favored both aspects, both single player and multiplayer...

 

[Thothie]

I've always tried to encourage a multi-player environment, insomuch as I can without destroying the core game mechanics.

I don't really approve of single player games very much, at least not lengthy ones, as MSC would be. If I ever abandon the project entirely, however, I've setup placeholders to setup a single player mode fairly quickly (nerfs the bosses, falsifies the number of players for chests/rewards). But I suspect that'd just mark the end of the game's existence.

Given how little time I've had for the game lately, and how little time MiB has had for it, I'd relinquish my position, if there was someone with the know how to move the game on more quickly, but sadly, at the moment, SFAIK, there is no one. So until death or jail comes along (as per my usual RL drama sob story), I don't know what to do move things along, but I've not quite given up entirely either.

I suppose there isn't much left to do for a rather minor patch, but I don't think that's going to be enough. I don't really know how we're going to renew our player base without moving to a new engine or some such.


Oh, as for the server browser thing, I dunno what's changed that suddenly caused the RKS servers not to show up in the browser - not sure if the change is on the Steam end, or the HLDS end, or what not. I'll have to PM RKS and see if he's updated recently - or hasn't, as the case maybe.

 

[The Man In Black]

F*CK IT

 

[FER]

For serious or just a joke from this new minecraft fetish of yours?

I mean, just beacuse its minecraft engine means blocky msc?

 

[zeus9860]

>_>
<_<
>_<

I suppose there isn't much left to do for a rather minor patch, but I don't think that's going to be enough. I don't really know how we're going to renew our player base without moving to a new engine or some such.

This is why i say the source team should actually help with ms:c, put an end to it and then jump on MSS rather than split up "resources".
You know how to renew the player base Thothie, it just needs something new as usual, new items/dungeons are something that spice up the mod but it gets boring after many patches ending up like that. I know there are those limits you so often mention that seem to make things impossible to work with, but there has got to be always a way to renew gameplay for people to enjoy the game again.
Go back in time and think what the team has done in some of the patches that made huge activity (eg: JAN2010, polearms patch).

Right now i would place my bet in a long-term patch, something like JAN2010 for 2013... It will revive the mod for a good while i bet. Then after that it's all up to focusing on the final content for the mod, rather than have non lore related maps over and over again which will keep the lore on hold, thus making no progress at all.


I quit ms:c myself because i've had enough of it for the past few years honestly, just had to get an addiction somewhere else, and my competition (opponents) also departed the lands in look for new addictions, which made things even more boring for me and made me take a break.

 

[Thothie]

Well, the next patch is likely to be minor, maybe one new map and a handful of items, coupled with a bunch of bug fixes. Unlike the JAN2010 patch, the current lack of activity is due to actual lack of time (and most of what happened in JAN2010, was due to intense effort on my and MiB's behalf in NOV-DEC2009). I got quite a bit done, on the current patch, while I was overseas, but alas, back home again, and life has resumed... I'll have another three or four days to fiddle come the end of the first week of September, though it'll likely all scripting, as I'll be depending on Hilton hotel net (which tends to suck).

It does seem we're right up against a wall in terms of resources. Seems anything we add makes it that much more unstable, which is just infuriating. I suspect we're hitting a texture limit of some sort, though I'm not quite sure. (Was getting some odd texture bugs with the Win7 gamer laptop I was borrowing, though they seemed to go away after I removed the full reflection boxes I was using to mark map teleporters.)

Dwarves and magic are the two biggest things awaiting application. The dwarf model isn't complete, but close enough that I could probably fix the remainder of it, if I was sure I had the most up to date source. I'd need MiB's help with that though. Plan is to have a whole new XP system for them, in addition to a new spell school.

For serious or just a joke from this new minecraft fetish of yours?

I mean, just beacuse its minecraft engine means blocky msc?

Probably a joke reference to yonder. (But yes, MiB has been busy with Minecraft, and running an MC server can be a full time job.)

A Java based Mastersword wouldn't necessarily entail blockiness, if that was a reference to the usual "Source isn't gonna cut it anymore" MSS debate. Runescape, for instance, is Java based. But I've yet to see a Java game with high end graphics, suitable for a first person RPG, that'd be an improvement over MSC's current engine. We'd probably also need a Java modeling package that could take Source/GoldSrc style SMD based models, which I've no idea if it exists - probably some sort of BSP compatibility, if we wanted to bring our mappers over too (fairly certain that doesn't exist).

As for just bringing all our developers to MSS, only our mappers could be used there. I could code, somewhat, but it's really in Orochi's hands, and I don't think he's letting go control of that source (not that I'd want him to, as putting it in my hands would be just about as good as no hands at all, just now.)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Here are a couple of ideas I have to bring something "new" to the game that will also encourage interaction between players:

Have you ever played Final Fantasy XII? If so, then you are familiar with the games hunt system. I propose a variant on this system. Basically, players would have the options of accessing a series of random 'jobs' when they spoke to the barkeep at a tavern. The jobs available to players would be static across all servers and the list of jobs would be randomized every week or two. The catch is, only one person can complete a job and once this is done, the job is off limits to the rest of the player base until the next 'rotation' period and even then, it can only be accessed if it randomly shows up in the job list.
Moreover, the rewards for these quests should be 'trophies' like the shad medal and, more importantly, a 'Stanley Cup' element should be introduced so that only one person can have a particular trophy at any given time. So, these quests become a race to see who can finish first and then victorious players defend their 'championships' from other players by continuing to compete with them any time said quest generates randomly in the job list.

On a side note, I hope that the tavern at the Underkeep (called 'The Black Toad') can be used as a staging ground for this mechanic.

Another way to bring players together is to make quests that require different types of players to be together at the same time. For example, perhaps a violent rapist could be prowling the streets of deralia between the hours of 12:00am - 4:00am, but the only way that players could lure him out would be to have a female player in the party.

Also, secret areas in maps that can only be accessed if players work together will help. An example, to open the door to an ancient dwarven treasure vault two ancient machines would have to be activated within 10 seconds of each other, but the machines are on opposite sides of the map. This would force players to divide their forces in an attempt to access the treasure.

Or, perhaps there could be a hole so small that only a dwarf could fit through, and, once inside the tunnel a switch could be activated that opens a door. To make things more interesting there could be a bunch of strong magic based enemies inside(and dwarves would be less adept at fighting magical enemies than an elf or human so it would be useful to have an elf nearby to buff you before you go in), or there could be a chance for either physical monsters or magical monsters, but the players never know which it was going to be.

Guilds could also compete with each other to turn in artifacts, items, potions etc. in exchange for GP, or 'guild points'. At the end of every 'season' (say 4 or 6 months) a 'trophy' type item could be awarded to the guild with the most GP, and then the game would start over. The 'Stanley Cup' principle would apply here, too, and so the winning guild of the next 'season' would usurp the trophy from the previous guild.

These are just a couple of ideas I have that could really improve this game and it's because the game has potential like this that I stick around (and continue to map).

 

[ceriux]

@thothie - new engine

i still suggest using the darkplaces engine, a couple games have been released for sale and someone is making an amzing remake of blood omen.

most maps should load right up in it, which means less to remake. mdl's would probably have to be ported to another format though. if hl.mdl is supported by darkplaces i dont think the attachments for it are. although md3 and iqm (custom built model format) i belive iqm supports bones and attachments. not to mention the engine is open source. of course things will have to be recoded... but the server code is really easy to learn and if you dont feel like recoding everything (anything) in the engine theres a script extension called CSQC which can draw hud and even do most of the server side code if you convert over to it, it even takes loads off the server.

plus ms:c could go indie =)

http://omnicide.legacy-of-kain.ru/en

http://www.moddb.com/mods/blood-omnicide

http://www.moddb.com/engines/darkplaces-engine

http://icculus.org/twilight/darkplaces/

 

[The Man In Black]

Only a partial joke for moving to Minecraft. If people wanted it and we could find a way to fund the server, I'd be all for doing it. I wanted to do an RPG server of some kind, but the problem is getting a way to have it make the 80$ per month for server costs.

On a related note, I did just release the beta of a Classes plugin on the server. Details here and upvotes always appreciated ;-)

 

[FER]

but the problem is getting a way to have it make the 80$ per month for server costs.

Sadly, "pay to win" methods would help, like it has with most java games.

 

[The Man In Black]

We try our best to avoid pay-to-win, but with that RPG environment, there might not be much else we can do. If we disabled PVP except in certain areas, it'd be mostly possible to do pay-to-improve, but since you're mostly co-op, it's not exactly a scenario where people care if someone's better than them.

I'm certainly open to suggestions, and have a lot of ideas for an RPG plugin, but we need a business plan to make sure we're not going to lose money here, as we're poor college kids ;-)

 

[FER]

Well I guess saying "pay to win" is too much of an exaggeration.

I was thinking something more along the line of people paying real money to really good gear and such, but WITHOUT compromising the fun of the game if you dont pay.
You know, like in RPGs like Diablo2 or WoW where people sell for real money their super rare gear, and not like in DeadFrontier where the game is really annoying and the only way to make it more bearable is buying ez mode.

First of all, if its using java engine it means that people can know about the game outside of Moddb, like on ArmorGames and Facebook (as much as I hate that site.)

 

[Thothie]

[Dynamic Quests] [Guild vs. Guild Maps]

There's been plans to allow random NPC's to give you random quests, sending you to random areas, generating rewards and encounters, based on your level. The minibosses and minions generated by such would likely be nasty enough to encourage gathering multiple players for assistance, though working out how to reward them all, beyond raw XP for the encounter (boss flagging said encounters) would be a bit trickier.

Guild PVP maps, such as capture the grail, and perhaps even territorial maps, have been on the backburner for a long time as well, though there's been less interest in that.

[Modified Quake Engine]

Idea would be to make a more accessible and newer engine, rather than an older and less distributed one. Not that there aren't sources for plugging in pixel lighting and proper bump mapping into Half-Life's modified quake engine as well, but I'm hesitant to do so, with the performance issues that just adding bloom added, on top of the existing ones.

 

[ceriux]

things like bloom already exist in darkplaces and dont really even give a performance hit. infact the bloom/hdr even is customizable to the user. darkplaces was explained to me as being its own engine, that just happens to run quake. apparently i mean this is probably an exaggeration but what i think they were really telling me is that darkplaces engine code has been altered so much that it doesnt even resemble quake anymore. half-life bsp also runs better than traditional q1 bsp in quake... which is weird. aside from darkplaces if a guy called mh has made a directx(i think it is) version of quake that runs exceptionally smooth. however it doesnt include all of the that engines like darkplaces or fte support. such as the required frikfile extension to save player stats and what not. But its a very easy to work with engine easy to make content and easy to train people to use.

i'm sorry for the brick of text btw.

 

[zeus9860]

Here are a couple of ideas I have to bring something "new" to the game that will also encourage interaction between players:

Have you ever played Final Fantasy XII? If so, then you are familiar with the games hunt system. I propose a variant on this system. Basically, players would have the options of accessing a series of random 'jobs' when they spoke to the barkeep at a tavern. The jobs available to players would be static across all servers and the list of jobs would be randomized every week or two. The catch is, only one person can complete a job and once this is done, the job is off limits to the rest of the player base until the next 'rotation' period and even then, it can only be accessed if it randomly shows up in the job list.
Moreover, the rewards for these quests should be 'trophies' like the shad medal and, more importantly, a 'Stanley Cup' element should be introduced so that only one person can have a particular trophy at any given time. So, these quests become a race to see who can finish first and then victorious players defend their 'championships' from other players by continuing to compete with them any time said quest generates randomly in the job list.

On a side note, I hope that the tavern at the Underkeep (called 'The Black Toad') can be used as a staging ground for this mechanic.

Another way to bring players together is to make quests that require different types of players to be together at the same time. For example, perhaps a violent rapist could be prowling the streets of deralia between the hours of 12:00am - 4:00am, but the only way that players could lure him out would be to have a female player in the party.

Also, secret areas in maps that can only be accessed if players work together will help. An example, to open the door to an ancient dwarven treasure vault two ancient machines would have to be activated within 10 seconds of each other, but the machines are on opposite sides of the map. This would force players to divide their forces in an attempt to access the treasure.

Or, perhaps there could be a hole so small that only a dwarf could fit through, and, once inside the tunnel a switch could be activated that opens a door. To make things more interesting there could be a bunch of strong magic based enemies inside(and dwarves would be less adept at fighting magical enemies than an elf or human so it would be useful to have an elf nearby to buff you before you go in), or there could be a chance for either physical monsters or magical monsters, but the players never know which it was going to be.

Guilds could also compete with each other to turn in artifacts, items, potions etc. in exchange for GP, or 'guild points'. At the end of every 'season' (say 4 or 6 months) a 'trophy' type item could be awarded to the guild with the most GP, and then the game would start over. The 'Stanley Cup' principle would apply here, too, and so the winning guild of the next 'season' would usurp the trophy from the previous guild.

These are just a couple of ideas I have that could really improve this game and it's because the game has potential like this that I stick around (and continue to map).

Nice post, the last bit you mentioned in it (pics or it didn't happen!)

 

[ceriux]

it would be awesome if someone could remake msc in this!

http://www.meridian59.com/

open source =) maybe not "l33t" graphics but! FPS MMO/ORPG =)

 

[Srgnt Rehab]

Would it be possible to add a system in MSC for certain dungeons to have dungeon challenges where you can only use one specific weapon type and gain bonus exp in that type for that dungeon? Say it is a dungeon with Weapon Challenge: Daggers and you can only use daggers but you get 1.20x exp modifier... It'd be a fun challenge to players looking to show off skill, and it'd have a perk to make it worth at least trying.

 

[ceriux]

sounds like a fun idea.

 

[zeus9860]

I think it would be easier to implement a bonus xp system where, let's say. Players get 200% xp, each green potion used by the player on that run lowers the global xp for the player by 20%, ending up with 100% (base xp as it is right now). Going lower values isn't really a good idea given that at this point, the best thing to do is to help people grind, and not the other way around. Plus this on top of that new multiplier boss system added last patch would work nicely. Bosses would give up to 4 times the base reward with 4 players, additional xp is rewarded to players who don't use potions.

So let's say a group of 4 players decides to go on the_wall, one of the player uses 5 potions, he gets base xp for killing things, while the other 3 will get double for putting in more effort on surviving the massacre, thus rewarded better in the end.
This would give the player the option to:
-get better at what they have to do in a map;
-play safely with potions, get less xp or play with skill and get better xp rewards.


And i agree with your suggestion Srgnt Rehab, though i do think we need a npc of some sort that gives out random tasks with random xp/item rewards. That should cover things up. Perhaps have that npc give you the ability to fast travel to a map or to walk there, fast travelling would give you a minor boost, walking there would give more multipliers up to a certain limit (so it doesn't get abused).

On top of this i can also see a nice use for ingame timers, give a temporarly boost to the player and send them to a map to grind. Like 30 minutes 50% boost in xp gain, 25% more damage, no gold drops, increase chest rewards by a small %, stuff like this...
Eg: Player is sent to hunderswamp with 20 minutes, random xp boost of 70%, random dmg boost of 5%, no gold drops, decreased chest drops, 50% stronger vampyric effect/any other element. In those 20 minutes the player would have to kill as many creatures as possible in that map, to get the most of it.
Perhaps the less time we have the bigger the bonuses, with some balance in between them.

 

[MrJohnson]

I generally support more XP in the easier regions where potions are not needed for survival. I mean nobody wants to grind forever, just to go to another map to start grinding again - that ain't fun.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

The absolute last thing we need is a bonus XP system or more pointless leveling. We need stuff to do. What on earth makes you guys think its a good idea to level past the only content this game actually has as fast as possible? We've been seeing the degenerate effects of this philosophy for years and it's gotten completely out of hand in the past two. For years now there has been virtually nothing to do except grind one area in one single, solitary map. For months there was nothing to do but spam one area in umulak, and then for well over a year there was nothing to do but rush to the end of orc_for and kill the spiders (took less than 1 minute to get there) and now there is only one thing to do: Rush to the boss in orcfor and spam him for stupid amounts of XP.

That's not a game.

The game needs to be redone, plain and simple. Every single map needs to be repopulated, monsters and equipment need to be reworked, new gameplay systems should be implemented (a questing system or my personality system, for example) and the leveling system should be refined. While this is going on mappers need to work together to complete and connect coherent portions of Daragoth. We then need to scatter various quests around our world map and then do a character wipe.

This game has pigeonholed itself after years of 'tacking on' random community generated content. It's been growing out of step with any coherent design for years now and it's way too late to fix things from the surface; we have to tackle this problem at the foundation.

Which means we need developers, not players. Why don't we try to recruit some of the talent that have worked on new(er) mods like Cry of Fear? As I understand it, many of those people have worked on successful half-life mods before and they may be receptive to do so again - especially if there is a ton of content already finished for them to work with.

 

[zeus9860]

The absolute last thing we need is a bonus XP system or more pointless leveling. We need stuff to do. What on earth makes you guys think its a good idea to level past the only content this game actually has as fast as possible? We've been seeing the degenerate effects of this philosophy for years and it's gotten completely out of hand in the past two. For years now there has been virtually nothing to do except grind one area in one single, solitary map. For months there was nothing to do but spam one area in umulak, and then for well over a year there was nothing to do but rush to the end of orc_for and kill the spiders (took less than 1 minute to get there) and now there is only one thing to do: Rush to the boss in orcfor and spam him for stupid amounts of XP.

And that's the reason why the xp system should be added. It would balance the outcome of most maps in terms of xp compared to higher level maps that are used to grind. Thus making more choices for the player to pick from. Grinding spots would still top it probably but you could do maps like hunderswamp without potions and get a really nice amount of xp from it.
Older maps would be left out on this, since the xp scaling is awfull in the early maps.

And about reworking the level system and character wipe, people already discussed that... Right now a character wipe wouldn't benefit in anyway to the community, the players right now, who managed to get far will likely quit, leaving the mod completly dead, with no active members. As for the level system i believe Thothie wanted to try something new for each race, meaning the humans will remain with the current level system, dwarves would use something new, elves too.
This is like you telling us to completly give up on the current ms:c and start a new one, if that's the case might aswell drop it completly and go for ms:s instead. Starting things anew right now won't change much and would likely change for the worst, it's a mod for an old game, that looses members to the brand new games so you can see, restarting things won't do any good right now.

 

[ceriux]

I generally support more XP in the easier regions where potions are not needed for survival. I mean nobody wants to grind forever, just to go to another map to start grinding again - that ain't fun.

this forum needs a like button..

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Right now a character wipe wouldn't benefit in anyway to the community

That's why I propose more than just a character wipe. We need a character wipe after we re balance the game.

the players right now, who managed to get far will likely quit, leaving the mod completly dead, with no active members.

This is a mute point for a couple of reasons. First of all, there is hardly an active player base in the high level range anymore. Hell, most high levels don't even come back to check out new patches. I know I don't. A couple of years ago this was a serious and valid point but things have changed. There isn't much of a player base remaining to actually quit on us.
Also, where it used to take years to get to 700 HP, now it takes months for a dedicated grinder to get to 1000. Everything that we 'worked' for in the old days means nothing now. There is nothing left of value for the old player base to hold on to in their characters.
Finally, if this were done correctly and not rushed it would bring players back, not drive them away. The game would be dramatically different, with much more to do at all level ranges. To implement radical gameplay changes and not eventually do a character wipe is pure nonsense, since the game will have changed so much by that time it will be an entirely new experience.
It would also be the perfect excuse for a new PR campaign and if a decent job was actually done it would bring players back, both new and old, in droves.

This is like you telling us to completly give up on the current ms:c and start a new one

This game is still in beta. Stuff like this is absolutely necessary before any semblance of a 'final product' can ever be released.