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"Coopertive" Ice shield.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Kanta, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Ever since Forsuth first shielded me at The Wall I've been jealous of his ability to shield my summoned wraith 2 minute long ice shield. So I had the idea of why not add an effect similar to that of rejuvenate, where it is more effective at healing when cast on another player. In this case though the ice shield will last longer when cast on another player, up to 120 seconds. It would be a nice incentive for ice shielding other players alongside the (unfortunately broken at the moment) bonus damage points.
     
  2. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    psycho-oligist
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    Tis a thought. Also want to add the ability to scoop up downed players for damage points, but meh - so complicated. This, at least, would be fairly simple.
     
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  3. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Reviving players sounds like a huge mess waiting to happen.

    Maybe the amount of time other players are shielded for could be dependent on the casters ice level, still at a minimum of 75 seconds though when you can first use the spell. Ice level 10=90 seconds, 20=105 seconds, 30=120 seconds, aka +15 seconds per 10 ice levels.
     
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  4. Truewarrior

    Truewarrior Adventurer Developer Blades of Urdual

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    I would rather make it 30 minutes buffs instead, ice shield does not really add fun to the game! Short damage/speed increase buffs sounds like more fun options?
     
  5. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Sounds like a pretty good reason to arbitrarily increase the difficulty of everything if such a feature were added. Cough.
     
  6. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    psycho-oligist
    lost
    Meh, dun wanna have to rebalance 5000 mobs that are built around the assumption of ice shield mechanics - though was planning to implement a stone skin variant that'd absorb 50% of damage up to X amount until it broke, with no duration limitation. Titles (sometime in the dreamy future), will probably add a wide variety of shorter buffs with cooldowns on a new keybind.

    Oddly, the reason we have a flat 50%, rather than scaling based on your ice skill, is because that's how it started, and we didn't wanna deal with the mass rebellion from such a nerf. On top of that, we've since extended the duration a few times. (Though we also introduced the 25% variant that's easier to get, even if pretty much everyone still gets the full version first.)
     
  7. TheOysterHippopotami

    TheOysterHippopotami Adventurer Source Developer Developer DarkTide RiP

    1,047
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    Sep 6, 2009
    Ice shield has become a pointless annoyance; it should be removed from the game and all players should just be given a constant 50% damage reduction effect that never expires.

    This is why ice shield and other similar items (ring of electric resistance, gpop etc.) have ruined this game. The gameplay is so out of balance now that it's broken beyond all hope of repair.

    We probably need a moratorium on new buffs at this point. Nobody wants buffs that cause future mobs to be obscenely difficult. Ice shield is not a "buff" - it is a nerf in disguise because it buffed every monster in the game to compensate for mechanics which were not fully considered before implementation.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2018 at 5:42 PM
  8. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Well then every buff is a nerf. Which, seems to be the case, judging by the Discord. (And besides, they already have that, with armor.)

    The ring scales with lightning skill, and the gpop is a consumable. All Ice Shield has going for it is that you have to tap out to recast, reducing the DPS and forcing you to keep an eye on it, unless you're in a group and keep an eye on each other, which you should be suitably rewarded for. Without that aspect to keep you on your toes, yeah, it's just a global damage reduction. Monsters above a certain tier are always going to be designed for players equipped at that tier, just as they are in every RPG, be it table top or vydia.

    I mean, if you just want players to die more, that's simple enough, but I don't recommend the antagonistic DM approach to map design - just keep them entertained.
     
  9. zeus9860

    zeus9860 Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

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    Feb 28, 2008
    Troll
    lolwut
    I don't mind the shield mechanics in this game (i know recasting ice shields can get annoying, even more so if the targetting is messed up or someone is stealing your shield), i just wish there was more magical shield types, with each of them having a benefit and a downside.

    For example,

    Ice shield:
    -Pros = provides 50% resistance to cold, 25% resistance to fire, 10% physical resistance (if blunt, slash and pierce actually made any difference, physical resistance could be explored even further than this)
    -Cons = slows down the player constantly by 20-25%, lifespan of the shield depends on the situation at hand (eg: absorbing fire damage shortens the lifespan of the shield, perhaps could go a step further and make a Pros for the cold side)

    Stone shield/skin:
    -Pros = provides 75% resistance to physical damage, 10% resistance to all magic elements
    -Cons = slows you down up to 50% in movement speed and attack speed if facing cold damage, stamina drain is increased and stamina gain is slower if facing fire damage, both cons would start at 25%

    Mud shield:
    -Pros = absorbs all damage types by 25%
    -Cons = lowers the hit rate of all meele weapons by 10%

    Magical shield:
    -Pros = provides 50% resistance to all magic elements
    -Cons = increases physical damage from enemies by 25%

    "Deflect related name" shield:
    -Pros = deflects 50% of all physical damage back to the enemy
    -Cons =all magical damage decreases it's lifespan as low as 1/3

    Etc

    Etc

    I would rather have something like this, with possible stacking of X amount of shields with capped resistances than having the potion system in this game. The suggestion for spell shields also applies to spell buffs that come from potions (eg: firebrand). Even more so if casting spells actually had a charge time. All of these spell shields could have long durations when cast, but preparing the spell to last that long could take a while, this would reinforce the use of shields in certain situations, rather than having them up all the time (unless someone would do this for you as a support-type of role). Stacking shields could be easily limited by tiers, having 3 tiers of shields, lesser, normal and greater. You could combine any 3 lesser shields or a normal and a lesser, a greater shield would always go alone.
     
  10. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    psycho-oligist
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    That's closer to the sorta thing I'd like to do, situational abilities - just afraid some mappers might try to counter by rainbowing their maps or adding insane DOT's, which defeats the purpose of prepping for an area with such a system. If the elemental resistant system got more sophisticated, might have to start clamping down on that, and perhaps go back and edit existing maps. Elemental themed Titles might further complicate issues. Unlike this modest change to ice shield, however, more things to worry about in the distant future, and not something apt to start rearing its head in this next patch.
     
  11. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Yeah.. In the game's current state a bunch of different shielding spells would needlessly complicate things and anything over 50% reduction to anything would be a bit game breaking(and probably cause aforementioned rainbowing), as always its a nice dream though.

    Hmm, does this mean my original suggestion is considered?
     
  12. zeus9860

    zeus9860 Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

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    lolwut
    Lo and behold the second wall of text.

    I was wondering if there is any way of blocking potion consumption on maps? You could try rebalancing the combat system for future maps following this idea if possible and avoid the old ones as it would take too much time to go through everything. I know someone thought about this before but i can't remember seeing an answer.

    This second idea is probably what i would call "the right path" and a "possible fix".

    If potions can't be blocked in maps then what about the character itself? Perhaps doing yet another tier system for leveling could help remedy the future maps. Something like the current leveling system goes all the way to 50 (tier 3), to progress further (tier 2) than this you are forced to start from lvl 1 again and doing so gives you benefits to your character, like extra traits to the character such as added default resistances without the need of gear and extra damage (leading to more damage points aswell) and even higher xp rates. These "benefits" would have to somewhat compensate the lack of potions in tier 2, so a balanced approach to this so that people can play the unbalanced older maps with some sort of ease. Of course with this in mind, tier 2 characters would have very limited access to potions (some potions still have a use, such as the stability potion or the one that removes memorised spells). All the new maps coming with tier 2 would have to be properly balanced before release with tier 2 benefits in mind, this is where patch testing would have to be crucial just like a decade ago with lodagond series. So rainbow maps wouldn't be that much of a big deal if people actually tested and gave feedback on what needs to get reworked or not.

    This isn't any perfect way of solving the issues with this game when it comes to combat mechanics, but at least in my opinion it would be a few steps forward in the right direction. Players that decide not to switch to tier 2 and remain in tier 3, they can still play the old way using potions in tier 2 maps but will be limited to tier 3 gear. Of course the higher the level range in the map, the more difficult it becomes for them aswell to keep up with tier 2 characters. Could even go another step forward and make tier 3 items obsolete when compared to tier 2 items. All of this is a way to justify the added tiers in the leveling system. You could even add new tier 2 gear on maps under 50 to further justify the need to change tiers.

    For example:
    - a tier 3 lvl 50 item would be equivalent to a tier 2 lvl 25-30 item when it comes to effectiveness (both offensive and defensive);
    - a tier 2 lvl 50 item would be equivalent to a tier 3 lvl 100 item if it ever existed;
    -tier 3 could be named something like "Mortals or Humans/Dwarves/Elves", tier 2 could be named something like "Ascending Mortals or Powerfull Humans/Evolved Dwarves/Ancient Elves", tier 1 could be related to the final tier which involved apostles or whatever "(insert lore related names here)"

    The only downside to this is that the early game is fastforward again. Since players will be getting even more powerfull gear earlier along with the tier 2 benefits, which could end up being... a massacre in the current low to mid level maps. Another way to remedy this would be tier 2 maps specifically balanced for tier 2 characters, in other words maps ranging from 1 to 50 in tier 2, of course the level range in tier 2 is different from tier 3 for maps aswell.

    And then later down the road, a tier 1 system could be added to finalize the game, whatever the endgame has for us, it could be achieved only by going in with tier 1 characters. Players can still play the endgame in the previous tiers if they want the extra challenge but i would advise the presence of a tier 1 character at least to achieve the ending. I would consider this final tier to the be true tier, where all items and maps would be tagged with "true" prior to their level requirements.

    Changing tiers for your character shouldn't remove any items from your inventory, in fact the only thing it should do is reset your stats and add permanent bonuses equivalent to that of potions (doesn't have to be completly equal to potions but at least a midterm+). This way, the game can be balanced for both tier 2 and tier 3.
     
  13. MS:C community

    MS:C community Active Adventurer

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    Jul 7, 2011
    @TheOysterHippopotami please help
     
    Kanta likes this.
  14. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Are you trying to say completing one mission at the [really easy map] is easier than completing all of [series of much harder maps]? (Though now that you mention it, think I'm seeing a chest and a vendor who rarely has it, and probably shouldn't, bugger.)

    Wouldn't disable potions - have been considering rigging it so elemental ones wouldn't stack, as we've had so many people stuck at the top for so long that they've gathered and distributed huge quantities of the consumables, only limited by the lack of ability to store them (which, come next patch, won't be an issue). That'd at least render them situational as intended, as huge a nerf as it'd be.

    The end game plan does involve starting over again at level 1 with a suite of Apostle powers and items you need to train up. (Still gotta add that customized ongoing plot that aims at that.)

    Not so much considered as already implemented. (Still need to test that little "+" icon I added for it though.)
     
    Kanta likes this.
  15. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Considering that that dude is half broken nd hi dia l og ap p ea s l ik thi, id say yeah its pretty hard. Also yeah, rolling [that chest] enough will bag you an easy (regular) ice shield. Can also get em at [that vendor] but that's more time consuming.

    Sweet! Will the time scale with SC/Ice level like I suggested or just a flat rate when used on other players?
     
  16. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    Not run into that yet, but yeah, heard of it, and no idea why it'd be happening...
    Also thought we nixed that (indeed, I think we did, but the fix got undone due to an emergency rollback). Stupid bit being I think I noticed it recently in game and it just plumb didn't register. Need new brain. (Also I am violating the spoiler rule willy nilly here [fixed]...)

    It's just flat, atm... May keep it that way - give yet another reason to do escort missions, I suppose. Only applies to Apostle candidates (players), not for NPCs, so ya gotta re-shield those siege targets and pets at the same rate.
     
  17. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Off topic but this just gave me another idea for some pet abilities; a howl for the winter wolf that ice shields nearby players and a howl that gives temporary fire brand to players for the shadow wolf.
     
  18. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    psycho-oligist
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    *sigh* Maybe at a certain level, but another nerf I'm not looking forward to is fixing the leveling cap on those. I also need to go through and rig it up so more powerful variants of spells aren't blocked by less powerful ones (so, for instance, if you cast Ice Shield proper on someone with Lesser Ice Shield, it upgrades and resets the time, rather than blocking it), similar with DOT's... Work work work. We're nearing the "go with whatever we have" stage, so I'd rather not get started on anything complicated right now.
     
  19. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Jan 24, 2013
    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Yeah, please don't get roped up in anything that isn't important right now. I think you've added more than enough new content for the patch, we're just waiting on those bugfixes so we can play a less broken game tbh.
     
  20. MS:C community

    MS:C community Active Adventurer

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    Jul 7, 2011
    No, that's not what I'm trying to say, but I'll admit I didn't say much.

    I only know of one (1) map where Lesser Ice Shield can be found, and trust me when I say I know a lot of spawn locations for a lot of items. And yes, it is the map you hinted at, but it's still just one (1) map.

    Regular Ice Shield, on the other hand, spawns just about everywhere. Some vendors in [that vendor base] even sell it, both scroll and tome.

    It should really be the other way around. Lesser Ice Shield should show up almost everywhere, including in the Helena shops, and regular Ice Shield should be a much, much rarer drop.
    Lots of MS:C players don't even know that Lesser Ice Shield exists in the first place. That's how obscure it is. If you were to delete it from the game entirely, I doubt many people would even notice.

    Also what this guy said:
    https://www.msremake.com/threads/ye-thread-of-xp-balancing.5674/#post-105884

    tl;dr: If "play one fairly obscure map for LIS vs. dozens of more popular maps for IS" means "it's easier to get LIS", then yes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018 at 7:37 AM
  21. zeus9860

    zeus9860 Adventurer Crusaders Blades of Urdual The True Followers of the Lost

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    lolwut
    I remember getting a lesser ice shield once, have no clue where but i thought it was a new thing back then and ended up dropping the thing when i noticed it was actually "lesser" (derp). Think i never saw that spell again, guess that makes it a rare item. By the time someone gets one, they will most likely have the normal one like i did.
     
  22. Thothie

    Thothie Administrator Staff Member Administrator Moderator Developer

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    psycho-oligist
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    Yeah, like I said, we stripped it from a certain vendor base and a chest, but I didn't realize that got undone at some point (even though, again, saw it in game recently and just brain farted). And yes, agreed, should be the other way around. It's on more maps than lesser ice shield, but, aside from those two instances, they are all much more difficult maps that players shouldn't encounter until much later - but yeah, we just have too many maps, and then there's twinkers.
     
  23. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    Level 45 Zauberei Basher
    ms_swamp
    Swapping the lesser ice shield rarity with normal ice shield rarity sounds nice, there'd have to be a level requirement chance as they both need 5 SC.
     
  24. MS:C community

    MS:C community Active Adventurer

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    Just put IS on SC 7 and LIS on 4 or maybe even 3. Probably 4 though.

    Edit: Also, twinkers are hardly the problem here.

    Noob: "Hey, I heard there's something called ice shield. Can you help me get it?"
    Pro: "Sure."

    -or-

    Pro: "Hey, we should get you ice shield."
    Noob: "What's that?"
    Pro: "Magic spell for damage reduction."
    Noob: "Sure."

    You won't ever see conversations like that about lesser ice shield simply because people just don't know it exists in the first place.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018 at 4:25 PM
    Kanta likes this.
  25. Kanta

    Kanta Active Adventurer

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    I don't think that was really his point.
     

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