Dwarves still not patched out?

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

TheOysterHippopotami said:
No it's not you willfully oblivious goon. It's not how any of the original maps work or how any of my maps work.

Oh really, so you're saying none of the original maps and none of yours encourage players to explore them in their entirety and gather all the treasure?

I kinda wonder what game you've been playing. Even Thornlands does that, it's only that most of the chests become not worth visiting after the first few times, and the last chest is generally too difficult to face the first few times around. Almost all the other maps, especially yours, have a more uniform difficulty, thus are even more apt to be entirely explored in one go, and yes, any with any treasure encourage you to gather all that treasure, which, as with Thornlands, tends to involve exploring most of the map, and killing near everything in it at least once.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
inb4 Thothie claims this isn't true.

Don't think that's what I said.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
You keep saying this and I do not believe you. When we were talking in DM you said you "populated aluhandra" but now, in this thread, you claim to "partially" populate aluhandra, which is quite a bit of a back pedal.. So what parts of Aluhandra did you "partially" do?

Thothie said:
Thornlands - Didn't make it
Thornlands_North - Didn't make it
Gertenheld Cape - Didn't make it
Sorc Villa - Populated it (Both variants)
Aluhandra - Populated most of it
Aleyesu - Populated some of it (as directed)
Undercliffs/path/keep/mines/crypt/fyre - Don't see what separates 4/6 of these from the first set.

Specifically, most of the stuff beyond the first orc encounter and around the palace, and some of the mobs in the bird zone.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
It's a sad state of affairs when mappers design maps so they actually get played? Who is responsible for such a state of affairs?

The game logic that higher risks bring greater rewards. Which, as I've said, and Community has repeatedly pointed out in the past, hasn't always worked out here.

Plus, in an RPG, it's ultimately illusional - process of getting your first non-rusty sword is very similar to getting your first blade of a thousand truths, save that generally the game play gets more complex as you advance. If you only want to work on maps for players who are near the end game, because having the blade with the biggest numbers in your chests makes you feel better, that's up to you. If you're doing it to entertain only your friends of similar level, that's at least a little less selfish. If you're the type who likes to make maps for new players or mid players, and thus doesn't mind having low to mid rewards on their map, that's great. I'll put up whichever comes in.

...and if you want to try to bait the players with fun or a story or such, instead of just depending on them to come for loot, that's an option too.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
You are functionally retarded. You don't understand anything about game design.

There's only two directions you can go, and they both involve a series of encounters until you reach the end (in one case, the first area you reach is the end). Not saying it's a bad map, it's great, but it's not exactly an explore every nook and cranny and get lost in the process map.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
How does a single map qualify as a 'hub of guantlets'?

In that, like Aluhandra, it's set up as a limited number of paths with encounters you can take to their ends - though it actually has several more.

Can we just agree that I'm wrong and you're right, no matter what we say? Think that'd save a lot of effort.

Kanta · Jan 31, 2020

Can you just stop bickering? I'd love to have the bugs we're experiencing right now gone and as it's been stated a few times already the flame war is eating up the time available to get us there.

So seriously, can you just hold it in until after the "nov2015b quick fix"? Hell, if it could wait until after the final goldsrc version that would be amazing.

Should I write up an official peace treaty you can sign? Jesus Christ...

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

Meh, can't bring myself to ignore the forums, and keep hoping to get something useful (which, over the past two days, has resulted in the sum total of the relocation of one item), but it does seem futile and never ends - so yeah, think I'm losing another development day "discussing" things, most of which we've been over a thousand times before.

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

No, having a tropical swamp with CROCODILES next to a MOUNTAIN does NOT make sense.

I think if you actually said "OKAY I WILL WORK ON X. I WILL KEEP YOU UPDATED ON PROGRESS OF X. AM ALSO WORKING ON Y" people would leave you alone. Instead you've DISMISSED EVERYTHING. It's DENIAL at this point. This is what is frustrating. NOT EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE. SOME THINGS ARE ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE. DO THOSE THINGS.

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

*sigh* Wish I knew what I was dismissing...

So far, over the last four pages, the suggestions and my responses have been:
More quests - Already working on it, as the person requesting it knows.
Extend the middle game - Already working on it, albeit slowly. (Wouldn't hurt to have more middle-low maps for that effort though.)
More maps like Thornlands - Not my department. Mappers do what they want. (But if I ever get to map again, definitely.)
Disconnect Nashalrath - Could, if more than one person wants to, for some odd reason.
Move the best item on a lore story map with voice acting to a two path gauntlet map that's long overdue for more love - Done.

...and your suggestion (just about the only one worded concisely enough to quote)...

Lucifer Majiskus said:
FIX DWARF! NEW PEOPLE MAKE DWARF AND THEN SAD. THIS BAD. FIX DWARF! FIX OTHER BAD! FIX CLEICERT! RELEASE ONE MAP! DO SOMETHING!!!!1

Which, somehow, is the least whiny suggestion here.... To which I can respond with, "ME MAKE NOV2015b!" (Maybe, if me can make work.)

Sadly, while I could have spent the past two days re-writing and testing that as needed, all I had time to do was hunt through archives, due to two people who rather write novels attacking me, the game, and our mappers, instead of asking for anything specific that I can do. So I thank you, Lucifer, for being just about the most mature and constructive person here (man, these are dark times indeed).

(Oh, also Mountains + Warm Air + Water = Swamp - depending on where in the jetstream you are. Albeit, not the only or even most common way to get swamp, but happens.)

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

Yes I find the inability to specify immediately possible changes disturbing. I still entirely disagree with your understanding of geography, but I do appreciate and HIGHLY respect your ability to sift through all this.

PLEASE fix dwarves and cleicert... Thank you.

TheOysterHippopotami · Jan 31, 2020

Thothie said:
Plus, in an RPG, it's ultimately illusional

What you are calling "illusional" I call aesthetics. You put little to no effort in giving players the illusion of being on an adventure. You just place monsters for killin' and treasure for lootin' and call it done. That's the laziest way to make a map.

Thothie said:
There's only two directions you can go, and they both involve a series of encounters until you reach the end (in one case, the first area you reach is the end). Not saying it's a bad map, it's great, but it's not exactly an explore every nook and cranny and get lost in the process map.

This is an outrageous simplification of Aluhandra. There area bunch of secrets or off the beaten path areas you can find. The giant scorpion can be easily missed, the orc boss is optional, there's a hard to find secret where you knock off a boulder, there's a totally optional, unrelated arena with a thunder bird in it, and, perhaps most importantly, every single monster can be run past

So there's two paths, on each path there's semi-hidden areas you might not even find which have mini bosses in them, you can run past every monster and there's a transition to shad_palace which was made completely meaningless by making it voteable.

Also, since these maps are voteable you choose to take the maps out of context. If you view aleyesu, aluhandra, shad palace and sorc villa as one big supermap separated by loading points then the optional nature of the elements I just mentioned becomes even more pronounced, and it starts to feel like you're on an epic adventure.

But that feeling is, of course, just an illusion. It's called suspension of disbelief in the film and literary world. You cannot dismiss a complaint about a lack of immersion by saying "immersion is just an illusion anyway".

That illusion is the most important aspect of game design.

Lucifer Majiskus said:
Instead you've DISMISSED EVERYTHING. It's DENIAL at this point.

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

/Thothie closes NOV2015a archive, and goes back to this....

TheOysterHippopotami said:
What you are calling "illusional" I call aesthetics. You put little to no effort in giving players the illusion of being on an adventure. You just place monsters for killin' and treasure for lootin' and call it done. That's the laziest way to make a map.

*sigh* I don't think you know what the word means, but alright... I've done everything I can think of to provide the "aesthetic" of being on an adventure, given what I'm working with, what would you suggest I do now? While I'm sorry you think our mappers are lazy, not my department, but personally, I find they quite often do fine work.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
This is an outrageous simplification of Aluhandra. There area bunch of secrets or off the beaten path areas you can find. The giant scorpion can be easily missed, the orc boss is optional, there's a hard to find secret where you knock off a boulder, there's a totally optional, unrelated arena with a thunder bird in it, and, perhaps most importantly, every single monster can be run past

So there's two paths, on each path there's semi-hidden areas you might not even find which have mini bosses in them, you can run past every monster and there's a transition to shad_palace which was made completely meaningless by making it voteable.

Also, since these maps are voteable you choose to take the maps out of context which of course you're doing. If you view aleyesu, aluhandra, shad palace and sorc villa as one big supermap separated by loading points then the optional nature of the elements I just mentioned becomes even more pronounced, and it starts to feel like you're on an epic adventure.

But that feeling is, of course, just an illusion. It's called suspension of disbelief in the film and literary world. You cannot dismiss a complaint about a lack of immersion like this by saying "immersion is just an illusion anyway".

That illusion is the most important aspect of game design.

I'm not sure how you'd miss the the boulder, lest the map buggered out (which that bit sometimes does), and it seems the scorpion would be hard to miss. Yes, the orc boss is technically optional, but well, everything is.

And I'm not dismissing your complaint, I'm saying it's a rant, and not a suggestion we can use. Maybe you could turn it into one, but I think you've written yourself into a rage again already. I might respond to a rant, but I can't do anything to help you with it.

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

Thothie said:
/Thothie closes NOV2015a archive, and goes back to this....

And I'm not dismissing your complaint, I'm saying it's a rant, and not a suggestion we can use. Maybe you could turn it into one, but I think you've written yourself into a rage again already. I might respond to a rant, but I can't do anything to help you with it.

He has a REALLY good point here.

TheOysterHippopotami · Jan 31, 2020

Thothie said:
I've done everything I can think of to provide the "aesthetic" of being on an adventure, giving what I'm working with. What you would suggest?

I would suggest taking inspiration from what the early MSC devs did. For example, I suggest you cluster more maps together into series' the same way mscave/gatecity/goblin town are clustered into a series. Aleyesu, Aluhandra, Shad_Palace and Sorv_Villa should be one series, for example. If you aren't willing to do that then I suggest you script up some kind of randomized events that can only occur if players are traveling through those maps on foot. They don't have to be complex. It can be something as simple as a unique monster spawning somewhere.

I suggest you do not create treasure schemes like the steam xbow, whose gimmick necessitates that you clear every room in orc_for before it has a chance to spawn. While we're on the topic of chests I also suggest you don't ever implement scaling chests in any maps ever again, even if the monsters scale in those maps.

I suggest you stop designing maps that aren't designed with solo play in mind, because getting swamped by a group of mobs designed to be hack'n'slashed by a group of elite players kills immersion and just feels like a pointless slog fest.

You are a psychologist. I suggest you think of ways to give players jolts of dopamine that do not involve XP or loot in any way. Randomized events, rare monsters, and secret maps are just some ways you could do that.

Lucifer Majiskus said:
He has a REALLY good point here.

Bullcrap. All of my suggestions are useable. Delivering them in rant form doesn't change that.

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

No one wants to read paragraphs of shit.

1) THIS NEEDS FIXED

2) I THINK THIS IS GOOD

3) MAYBE ALSO THIS.

This is how you should pose suggestions.

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

TheOysterHippopotami said:
I would suggest taking inspiration from what the early MSC devs did. For example, I suggest you cluster more maps together into series' the same way mscave/gatecity/goblin town are clustered into a series. Aleyesu, Aluhandra, Shad_Palace and Sorv_Villa should be one series, for example.

As I said before (if I haven't already said everything here before):

Thothie said:
Mind there also are not enough map connectors to really put all the maps in a smooth level progression - hence Thanatos and Phlame's connecting to Sfor and the like (though at least there's warnings and some increased danger on the way). If you could make a map of all the existing transitions and how you'd like them to fit together so that all the liked-leveled maps would be clustered near one another, that'd be great, but I don't think I could pull that off myself.

edit:
Although in the particular example you give: Aleyesu, Aluhandra, Shad_Palace and Sorv_Villa, it's already the case. They are all in the Aluhandra Desert, and interconnected. If you mean create quests between them - there's one connecting Shad_Palace and Sorc_Villa, but yes, could set up more.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
Bullcrap. All of my suggestions are useable. Delivering them in rant form doesn't change that.

Oh contraire monfair, you just wanna list off what you hate, and then project your shortcomings on me. I just happen to come up with a suggestion from your rants, once in a great while, but can never actually quote them, and then you say I'm dismissing you. I mean, look at this whole section:

TheOysterHippopotami said:
I suggest you stop designing maps that aren't designed with solo play in mind, because getting swamped by a group of mobs designed to be hack'n'slashed by a group of elite players kills immersion and just feels like a pointless slog fest.

You are a psychologist. I suggest you think of ways to give players jolts of dopamine that do not involve XP or loot in any way. Randomized events, rare monsters, and secret maps are just some ways you could do that.

Almost entirely your department. I almost never get to design a map, and, save randomized (albeit, often nonsensically), this reads like a litany of the complaints I've made about your maps. You are a mapper, blaming a scripter, for the design of near a hundred maps - like an engineer blaming a car salesmen for the shape of the cars, while describing the car you designed. Physician, heal thyself - stop making maps in the exact style you hate and taking it out on me.

TheOysterHippopotami said:
I suggest you script up some kind of randomized events that can only occur if players are traveling through those maps on foot. They don't have to be complex. It can be something as simple as a unique monster spawning somewhere.

On foot is the only way players can travel, at the moment. If you mean via legitimate map transition, I generally want to discourage that. Due to the hazards of the system and the down time between maps, it's long been an aesthetic (er... "beautifying?") feature of the game, rather than a function, with a few exceptions, and as few as possible. Most transitions merely exist to provide the illusion (er... "aesthetic?") that the greater world is persistent, and provide orientation within that world, as well as a suggestion for where players (mostly new ones) might go next.

I can, however, set up random encounters. I could tweak up the dynamic quest system, perhaps, to add random encounters when no player is on such a quest (otherwise could end up with too many spawns). This might, in some cases, be a bit intrusive to the mapper's intent (altering the encounters on their map), but there are several maps I've less qualms about messing with that way (including the core maps). Additionally, a series of wandering NPCs to randomly encounter is on the to-do list for the personal background questline (characters who claim they know you, but who your character does not remember, followed by intrigue/drama/romance/etc.)

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

Cameras are broken in ms_soccer

I'm stuck in the camera view right now..

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

Eh, sorry, engine problem. If you move while in the camera, you won't be touching the button anymore, and won't be able to exit. There maybe some way to avoid that on the map end, short of freezing you in place somehow, but I'm not sure. Might be fixable code side, but we use cameras so little, not sure. (Had always planned a nice camera fly through for Shrinkspell, should have looked into that by now - albeit, also should have done Shrinkspell by now.)

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Jan 31, 2020

Engine problem? I've never seen this happen in any other mod before

It would be good idea to freeze you in place while you use them, though.

Thothie · Jan 31, 2020

My bad, it's moving the mouse that causes it, rather than moving the character. I've run into on various Half-Life maps (get in camera, move mouse, can't get out unt you re-oriented towards the button), but others seem to have found a solution, so it's probably resolvable, either map or SDK side like I said, I'd just need to look into how. What you are experiencing there, however, is the default behavior of the entity when used by itself under the engine, sadly. I'll have to hunt down through the HL1 map sources or VERC to learn more.

Might also be an issue with the camera being above you.

edit:

Thothie said:
- ms_soccer cameras are hard to get out of if you move the mouse while using them

Is on the bug list though. Just, hasn't been a real priority.

Monika's_BFFEx0256 · Feb 1, 2020

Oh I see, hahaha sorry.

MS:C community · Feb 1, 2020

Thothie said:
Half of which I populated, so thanks?

I wasn't discussing aluhandra2's monster setup, I was discussing its lack of unique reward(s). I believe "moving the goalposts" is the term to describe what you're doing here.

I will say this though: if you actually populated aluhandra2, I'm pleasantly surprised. That map sticks to a theme (lightning), as opposed to those horrendous rainbow maps I mentioned earlier. Good job. Truly, good job.

Thothie said:
And we had nothing to put there at the time, and we've been too busy doing other things to rearrange all the world's treasure.

Phoenix armor predates aluhandra2, as do lots of other uniques. There was enough worthwhile stuff to put in that map. Gold armor, dark sword, hoarfrost shard, raven mace, heavy crossbow... I could go on and on.

Thothie said:
Though frankly I wish it had more to explore, being essentially a two directional gauntlet.

Hahahahahahaha!
*cough*
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Thothie said:
In Hunderswwamp's case, we both decided being able to go straight to the boss for massive XP and treasure was a problem. So the two options were: nerf the encounter, and it''s XP and the treasure, or make you do more to reach the boss. We went with the latter. So now that there's one area you can't get to quickly, the map is ruined, great.

You could've nerfed the boss XP (which you did regardless, from 30k to 20k XP) and moved the super rare / unique items to, you guessed it, aluhandra2, or some other beautiful free-roam map that has no uniques whatsoever. Also, I don't think the map is completely ruined. The visuals, gameplay and challenge (which is 'non-rainbow', mostly) still make for a really compelling map. See list below.

And I recall a similar thing happening to aleyesu. You used to be able to just wander into the labyrinth. Now you have to kill the mage guarding the key first. This is yet another example of a (semi-)free-roam map being turned more linear. Shame.

Thothie said:
I'm sorry you feel near everyone's maps are trash though.

Near everyone's maps from the past ten years. There are plenty of maps I thoroughly enjoy, but most of them are very, very old, because people got pushed towards making linear gauntlet maps instead of free-roam exploration maps.

Good maps: ara, challs, deralia, gertenheld_cape, heras, goblintown, lostcastle_msc, shender_east
Great maps: aleyesu, chapel, edana, edanasewers, gatecity, helena, hunderswamp_north, isle, keledrosprelude2, keledrosruins, kroush, ms_wicardoven, thanatos,
Absolutely fantastic maps: aluhandra2, daragoth, oceancrossing, sfor, shad_palace, smugglers_cove, sorc_villa, the_keep, thornlands

And yes, I know, some of these maps are somewhat linear or completely linear, but at least they stick to a theme (and have gorgeous visuals; see shad_palace and the_keep). Rainbow maps are pure evil and should be forbidden entirely.

An additional problem is that the vast majority of really really useful high-level items (or forge item requirements) spawn in abysmal maps. People don't play catacombs for fun, people play it out of pure necessity, to get certain tomes for certain spells. I can make a similar statement about a certain polearm in bloodshrine, but first I must quote some other stuff:

Thothie said:
I don't think that was the intent for most of those, nor were most of them the hardest maps in the game when they were released

Of those seven maps I mentioned, five (the_wall, catacombs, bloodshrine, umulak and tundra) were definitely amongst the hardest maps upon release.

Thothie said:
and while that's logical, it's a sad state of affairs if you're just making your maps harder for better loot - which, as you so often point out, doesn't always work out for them, as there's not always new phat lewt forthcoming.

I pointed out the exact opposite...

MS:C community said:
Why did [the mappers] want to make hard dungeon maps? Because they knew dungeon maps get unique loot, and therefore will be played.

Thothie said:
A lot of those maps don't actually have very good loot for the difficulty as a result, as you've often complained about. Assuming they are aware of this as well, perhaps they make the maps at the difficulties they do to challenge their friends in the same level range? The_Wall and Tundra were the only ones of those where the difficulty level was predetermined.

Also half of those don't have uniques either.

Most of these maps do have good loot for their difficulty (my complaints were, and still are, with certain spawn chances, or with Frosty dishing out junk 4 out of 9 times).
I can't post specifics but the_wall, catacombs, umulak and deraliasewers all have one or more items that are unique to them.

Bloodshrine has a certain polearm that was unique to it, but now it can also be found in another map as well. Then again, the spawn chance for [polearm name] in [other map] is a mere 2.413% with eight players, so that might as well be discarded as a viable option entirely.
Tundra has a certain staff that was unique to it, but now it can also be found if you defend an NPC in the middle of an open area in one of the crashiest segments of the entire game. Hardly a viable option either.

So, to summarize: of the seven maps I mentioned, four of them have uniques and two of them had. The odd one out is gertenhell, and for this I am grateful. Thanks to the lack of unique reward(s), there is no reason to ever play that map. Based on the map's actual "gameplay", I think this is a fantastic outcome. Shame about the cool boss though (the map's only redeeming quality). That thing is completely wasted there.

Thothie said:
OMG your first suggestion in this thread! Even if I had to nix half the sentence to make it one. Fine. Done. Dun think L3ft_Turn is gonna complain at this point. It's a shame that you think the map isn't good enough for 3-7 epics, some potions, and the latest charm to be enough to bribe them to play it, but I'm willing to bait them away from maps with story and voice acting in them, I suppose.

My first suggestion in this thread!

After, you know, my first first suggestion on page 1, where I single-handedly solved the Cleicert crashing. You're welcome.

Also, it's not that I think the map isn't good enough for 3-7 epics etc., it's that I know for a fact the map isn't good enough for 3-7 epics etc. How do I know? People rarely, if ever, play aluhandra2. If you're really going to put the phoenix armor in that map's final chest, I will see that as a long overdue apology to Rickler and I will be thankful.

I'm not sure what that stuff about L3ft_Turn means though. I can only assume he was partially involved in making Wicard Oven. Then again, so were SpiritVII and replica. Just because I suggested the phoenix armor, doesn't mean I have anything against Wicard Oven. In fact, I really like Wicard Oven (see list above). If I mentioned the hoarfrost shard, I bet you would've construed that as a personal attack against Crow.

At any rate, I think the phoenix armor should spawn in both Wicard Oven and Aluhandra.

And that brings me to my next suggestion, which I'm sure I've posted several times in the past X years: every single item in the game should spawn in at least two maps of roughly comparable difficulty.

Reason 1: You (Thothie) won't have to spend lots of time scripting new items.
Reason 2: You won't be forced to insult godlike mappers (like Rickler) with zero uber-rares / uniques ever again.
Reason 3: If players are fed up with map A, they can always go to map B (or, hopefully, maybe even map C) to farm for the same item.

Thothie · Feb 1, 2020

MS:C community said:
I will say this though: if you actually populated aluhandra2, I'm pleasantly surprised. That map sticks to a theme (lightning), as opposed to those horrendous rainbow maps I mentioned earlier. Good job. Truly, good job.

Not to offend CrazyMonkeyDude, but it's a well known fact I disapprove of rainbows. Pure lightning immunity is generally harder to acquire (or at least rarely bothered with), so it needs less of a mix than most - even were it otherwise, anymore than two flavors of ice cream mixed together just tastes like trash.

MS:C community said:
Phoenix armor predates aluhandra2, as do lots of other uniques. There was enough worthwhile stuff to put in that map. Gold armor, dark sword, hoarfrost shard, raven mace, heavy crossbow... I could go on and on.

Yes, but I would have had to rob it from a map, while the mapper was still around. I'm basically saying "HIM BETTER, F*CK YOU!" - and I'm particularly reluctant to do that when a lore map is involved. Though there's more to that I'll cover later in the post...

MS:C community said:
You could've nerfed the boss XP (which you did regardless, from 30k to 20k XP) and moved the super rare / unique items to, you guessed it, aluhandra2, or some other beautiful free-roam map that has no uniques whatsoever. Also, I don't think the map is completely ruined. The visuals, gameplay and challenge (which is 'non-rainbow', mostly) still make for a really compelling map. See list below.

And I recall a similar thing happening to aleyesu. You used to be able to just wander into the labyrinth. Now you have to kill the mage guarding the key first. This is yet another example of a (semi-)free-roam map being turned more linear. Shame.

Don't recall nerfing his XP, but it maybe the point where the boss multipliers changed.

Aleyesu was a bug Rickler fixed - made all the doors vanish due to wrong field in a trigger_relay.

MS:C community said:
Of those seven maps I mentioned, five (the_wall, catacombs, bloodshrine, umulak and tundra) were definitely amongst the hardest maps upon release.

Catacombs and Tundra? Really? Those were almost the last two my "official" character could survive on. Maybe The_Wall, which would be as lore progress demanded. Umulak is a special case. Though some of those maps have no uniques. But I do feel the need to reiterate, I don't do much in the way of map design. If mappers give me ludicrously hard map, you get a ludicrously hard map - and I just mumble while continuing the power creep to compensate, as sweet new items seems to be what that is calling for.

MS:C community said:
2.413% with eight players

Code:

	local RND_HACK 40
	subtract RND_HACK $rand(1,40)
	local N_PLAYERS2 GAME_PLAYERS
	multiply N_PLAYERS2 2
	if ( RND_HACK < N_PLAYERS2 )
	{
		if !G_GAVE_TOME1
		setvarg G_GAVE_TOME1 1
		addstoreitem STORENAME [some_fancy_polearm_script] 1 0
	}

Umm...
(1-40) vs nplayers * 2... 8 players would be a 16/40 chance... Goofy as that formula is, due to hacks we've been experiencing.

Granted, part of the goal of the centralizing the treasure system is to take care of, other, odd things like that, and make it easier for us to globally increase spawn chances and push items up as new maps come in (which we steadily have been, save for the latest in greatest, which are usually closer to the traditional 1/200 chance of MSC 1.0 - where there were so few items and so few maps, the devs had little other choice). Do have the problem that new maps often come in faster than new items - and while I suppose that might be worse on my end now, on the modeling end, at least, we've got plenty to work with. Used to be we'd usually have to wait for a new model as well - which is why I started borrowing from a Morrowind mod to try to keep up... Which, yes, did not go over well.

MS:C community said:
After, you know, my first first suggestion on page 1, where I single-handedly solved the Cleicert crashing. You're welcome.

Sorry, true that, thanks for bringing it up again - was thinking of developer suggestions.

MS:C community said:
And that brings me to my next suggestion, which I'm sure I've posted several times in the past X years: every single item in the game should spawn in at least two maps of roughly comparable difficulty.

Reason 1: You (Thothie) won't have to spend lots of time scripting new items.
Corollary: You won't be forced to insult godlike mappers (like Rickler) with zero uber-rares / uniques ever again.
Reason 2: If players are fed up with map A, they can always go to map B (or, hopefully, maybe even map C) to farm for the same item.

Another factor as to why Rickler's maps had to depend more on their design merits than their loot, is we've had this thing, in the past, where often a model was donated for a specific map, to theme, and the item kinda becomes a reward for the mapper's efforts, and there was a rash of those while RIckler was here, who never requested one for himself. Plus there's a few items that are lore related. I think, come the treasure rewrite, there's going to be a lot less fixed items, but we'll probably be still honoring those unwritten contracts. We'll see how much that changes the map popularity list - but, last I checked some months ago, aluhandra2 was already at #12 (discarding Edana for obvious reasons).

TheOysterHippopotami · Feb 1, 2020

While we are on the topic of Phoenix Armor, my suggestion is to turn it into a forge item and put one unique ingredient in wicard and another unique ingredient in aluhandra2. Then put the armor itself at either the sorc_villa forge or the forge at the updated Deralia that's coming out next patch, or the forge at underkeep. aesthetically, I think the best option is to put it at the sorv_villa forge.

Any time there is not enough loot to go around this should be the default course of action in my opinion, so that no deserving map ever gets "robbed" of treasure again.

A suggestion for Phoenix Armor

Is it just me, or is the boss at the end of wicard oven too easy for something as epic as PA? I personally do not think that such a good armor should be obtained from such a lackluster fight. Instead, I would like to see a 'Ruby Armor' drop in the artifact chest. It would be something like 50%...

www.msremake.com

With that said, if you were not allowed to vote to shad palace then aluhandra would not even need any treasure at all because the "reward" would be access to a map that leads to a forge.

one of the biggest problems with leaving every single map voteable is that every single map requires it's own loot. Imagine how much worse our loot allocation problems would be if lodagond1-3 and lowlands/highlands/lostcastle etc. all required their own unique set of loot because you could just skip straight to them? When maps are consolidated into a series all you need to do is put the loot at the end of the series and all of the maps suddenly become important and worth playing.

Thothie · Feb 1, 2020

TheOysterHippopotami said:
put one unique ingredient in wicard and another unique ingredient in aluhandra2
aesthetically, I think the best option is to put it at the sorv_villa forge.

My inner english teacher wants to stran... But yes, that is another idea, so the lore map won't get boned in the process. Could be vicious and require more of the Aluhundra item... Though, at the same time, are there any other maps you would like to bait?

MS:C community · Feb 1, 2020

Thothie said:
Yes, but I would have had to rob it from a map, while the mapper was still around. I'm basically saying "HIM BETTER, F*CK YOU!"

No, you'd be saying "HIM COMPARABLE; YOU ARE BOTH AWESOME!"

Mappers don't get to decide which loot does or does not drop in their maps. Why should they be allowed to complain if 'their' uniques also show in different maps?

Thothie said:
Don't recall nerfing his XP, but it maybe the point where the boss multipliers changed.

It might've indeed occurred simultaneously with the introduction of [FN] XP multipliers, but the point still stands. Want me to look it up and make a video of the old XP vs. the new XP or something?

Thothie said:
Catacombs and Tundra? Really? Those were almost the last two my "official" character could survive on.

Ramped up to tier VI of course. I'm not discussing tier I because then nothing worthwhile will drop.

Thothie said:
Code:

local RND_HACK 40 subtract RND_HACK $rand(1,40) local N_PLAYERS2 GAME_PLAYERS multiply N_PLAYERS2 2 if ( RND_HACK < N_PLAYERS2 ) { if !G_GAVE_TOME1 setvarg G_GAVE_TOME1 1 addstoreitem STORENAME [some_fancy_polearm_script] 1 0 }

Umm...
(1-40) vs nplayers * 2... 8 players would be a 16/40 chance... Goofy as that formula is, due to hacks we've been experiencing.

Info given to me, straight from Dr. Drew:

Code:

if ( $rand(1,24) < L_NPLAYERS ).callevent add_artifact 100%

Artifact item list:

Code:

[an axe];[a different axe];[the polearm that also drops in bloodshrine];[an axe, again];[a charm];[a charm, again];[a different charm];[a different polearm];none;[yet another different axe];none;none

At eight players, $rand(1,24) is lower than eight 7 out of 24 times. There are 12 entries on the artifact list, and the one I'm referring to now is only listed once. So it will show up 1 in 12 times.

(7/24) * (1/12) * 100% = 2.4305555...%.

Thothie said:
last I checked some months ago, aluhandra2 was already at #12 (discarding Edana for obvious reasons).

Aluhandra2 the 12th most popular map? If 'popular' means 'most played', then I call bullshit.

Thothie · Feb 1, 2020

MS:C community said:
At eight players, $rand(1,24) is lower than eight 7 out of 24 times. There are 12 entries on the artifact list, and the one I'm referring to now is only listed once. So it will show up 1 in 12 times.

(7/24)*(1/12)*100% = 2.4305555...%.

This is the artifact list for Bloodshrine:

Code:

	const SOME_POTS "mana_bravery;mana_paura;mana_faura;mana_fbrand;mana_font;mana_immune_cold;mana_sb"

The fancy polearm is not on an artifact list. It's just a straight up item. So, 16/40. Are you quoting a different map's script? It has no charms either.

MS:C community said:
No, you'd be saying "HIM COMPARABLE; YOU ARE BOTH AWESOME!"

Heh. Maybe after we get that airborn CRISPR retrovirus that makes all of humanity compliant and never jealous of one another.

(Granted I expect that'd make 90% of us drop dead.)

MS:C community said:
It might've indeed occurred simultaneously with the introduction of [FN] XP multipliers, but the point still stands. Want me to look it up and make a video of the old XP vs. the new XP or something?

I'm not saying I don't believe you.

MS:C community said:
Ramped up to tier VI of course. I'm not discussing tier I, obviously, because then nothing worthwhile will drop.

Eh, Tundra doesn't self adjust.

MS:C community said:
Aluhandra2 the 12th most popular map? If 'popular' means 'most played', then I call bullshit. Complete, utter and total bullshit.

12th most loaded - dunno if people just stood around and chatted at the spawn... Which I've seen happen on every map an amazing number of times (why did we leave Edana?).

But in case ya missed it:

Thothie said:
Could be vicious and require more of the Aluhundra item... Though, at the same time, are there any other maps you would like to bait?

TheOysterHippopotami · Feb 1, 2020

Thothie said:
My inner english teacher wants to stran...

the word aesthetic does not just apply to visuals, although in this case, i am specifically talking about the visual relationship between the phoenix armor and the desert vibe of aluhandra, so the word applies here even in the most traditional sense. Also, fire is hot, and deserts are hot, so pairing them together creates aesthetic harmony. by contrast, putting phoenix armor in hunderswamp, would create aesthetic disharmony.

aesthetics is largely about matching different elements in a way that inspires a vibe in people. invisible elements like code or game design decisions, can contribute to vibe just as much as anything visual.

Thothie · Feb 1, 2020

It functions, but it's about the least appropriate word you could use for the sentence. Go up to your wife and tell her she's pulchritudinous.

Dwarves still not patched out?

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Active Adventurer

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Active Adventurer

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Active Adventurer

Administrator

Old Skool Apostle

Administrator

Active Adventurer

Administrator

Similar threads